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Thread: The Greatest Mangakas

  1. #81
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    Obviously my point wasn't clear. Nisaren chose metrics that have nothing to do with the comic artists themselves. Cypress was easily able to say why cake's heaven was a good comic, but you two were so quick to say that the most important thing was the numbers. Devianrtart watchers? You're joking right.
    No, not watchers. I didn't make myself clear. If we're talking influence, then what better way then to see how many works have been influenced by it? Give One Piece a search over at dA. You'll get 249,859 results. 249,859 pieces inspired, as thus, influenced by One Piece. Naruto has over 1 million. Heaven? None. Or none in context at least.

    Classic bacon barbarian. Googles a band and then tells me why they were able to succeed despite never having heard of them. Anyway that was obviously not the point I was making. Quality has nothing to do with how many "chapters" a comic has. You couldn't possibly argue that...could you?
    Yes. More chapters gives you more time to develop. With maturity comes greatness.

    So does the twilight lady go on the list of best writers?
    I for one wouldn't say so, but many would.

    That's not how the test of time works. The test of time is something happens and years later it is still influencing and interesting people. Long running series don't have to worry about this because they can change to meet the demands of modern readerships.
    You really think One Piece has changed since 5 years ago?

    He's got jokes
    No I don't.

    Um number of publishes series as in amount of series put out on the market. Oda has one, and a collection of short stories.
    Oh. I guess if that's what he actually meant. We'll have to wait and see I suppose. But if you're right, I conceed this point.
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  2. #82
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon_Barbarian View Post
    No, not watchers. I didn't make myself clear. If we're talking influence, then what better way then to see how many works have been influenced by it? Give One Piece a search over at dA. You'll get 249,859 results. 249,859 pieces inspired, as thus, influenced by One Piece. Naruto has over 1 million. Heaven? None. Or none in context at least.
    Wait are you talking about fanart?

    Yes. More chapters gives you more time to develop. With maturity comes greatness.
    This is where I'd type, "I can't tell if you're being serious or not," but I don't really have to do that anymore because wtf are you being serious? So junji ito, whose works are mainly short stories, to you, could never be considered as good as that potato sack that does bleach?

    By your logic, dominic deegan would be a good comic by now.

    I for one wouldn't say so, but many would.
    The idea here is that anyone could consider a fundamentally bad writer as one of the greats simply because she has sold a lot of books. Once again, it has nothing to do with the quality of the creator's work and everything to do with numbers. Am I getting anywhere here?

    You really think One Piece has changed since 5 years ago?
    It hasn't had to? But consider something like Dr Who.

  3. #83
    Senior Member nisaren's Avatar
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    I wasn't really writing that in response to the fact that we included Evil's comic. There's no reason to get defensive about wanting to know why we should include some of these mangaka's in our list. Some of them are obvious, some aren't. I listed the metrics as examples of reasons why an artist would qualify for inclusion not as a reason for exclusion. I just want people to convince me why I should believe these artist's are worthy of being considered "great" as opposed to other artists.

  4. #84
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nisaren View Post
    I wasn't really writing that in response to the fact that we included Evil's comic. There's no reason to get defensive about wanting to know why we should include some of these mangaka's in our list. Some of them are obvious, some aren't. I listed the metrics as examples of reasons why an artist would qualify for inclusion not as a reason for exclusion. I just want people to convince me why I should believe these artist's are worthy of being considered "great" as opposed to other artists.
    In turn I wasn't writing to defend cake's comic.

    What I was asking of you all was to consider that numbers are an unreliable way to judge the quality of an artist's work. I think I made my point clear, despite what bacon is saying. Looking at anything like this through statistics is fundamentally flawed. So I say fudge the metrics and judge the artist's body of work by the quality of it.

    Also as for people convincing you why dudes should be on the list -- Its just some dude's list. Hiro Mashima is on it for godsakes.

  5. #85
    Senior Member nisaren's Avatar
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    The problem I have with what you are saying is that the way you are measuring "quality" is an entirely subjective thing and therefore different for everyone. Which basically makes this list just a list of favorite mangakas for whomever suggests. I chose those metrics because they are things that can be measured objectively giving us an unbiased reason for believing a mangaka to be "great".

  6. #86
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    Wait are you talking about fanart?
    Yes. Are you saying that fanart doesn’t measure influence? Why else are they drawing it?

    This is where I'd type, "I can't tell if you're being serious or not," but I don't really have to do that anymore because wtf are you being serious? So junji ito, whose works are mainly short stories, to you, could never be considered as good as that potato sack that does bleach?
    I have no idea who Ito Sensei is, but I have little respect for Tite Kubo as an artist. ... Let me change my mind. The longer you've been making comics as a whole, the better you are. This is a list of the greatest Mangaka, not the greatest manga.

    By your logic, dominic deegan would be a good comic by now.
    You seem to forget, I don't think DD is a complete abomination unto humanity.

    The idea here is that anyone could consider a fundamentally bad writer as one of the greats simply because she has sold a lot of books. Once again, it has nothing to do with the quality of the creator's work and everything to do with numbers. Am I getting anywhere here?
    No. They're doing something right if they're selling.

    It hasn't had to? But consider something like Dr Who.
    Exactly. And I know little of the Doctor. Simply that he changes actors frequently because he is a Time Lord. So ... Yeah. You don't want my opinion, as I lack one
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  7. #87
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nisaren View Post
    The problem I have with what you are saying is that the way you are measuring "quality" is an entirely subjective thing and therefore different for everyone. Which basically makes this list just a list of favorite mangakas for whomever suggests. I chose those metrics because they are things that can be measured objectively giving us an unbiased reason for believing a mangaka to be "great".
    And I pointed out why I believe those metrics will give you false cases. Trying to come up with a list for greatest anything is going to be inherently subjective. It's supposed to breed discussion.

    I'd rather hear something like cype's response than hearing that something doesn't count because it didn't push enough volumes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon_Barbarian View Post
    Yes. Are you saying that fanart doesn’t measure influence? Why else are they drawing it?
    I'm making sure we're on the same page here. I typed in naruto and got 1667403 hits. Typed in Superman and got 100428. I don't think it's an accurate test since Superman literally inspired an entire genre that is a staple of american culture and naruto is just incredibly popular.

    I have no idea who Ito Sensei is, but I have little respect for Tite Kubo as an artist. ... Let me change my mind. The longer you've been making comics as a whole, the better you are. This is a list of the greatest Mangaka, not the greatest manga.
    This was brought up because you felt that heaven didn't have enough chapters to be considered.

    You seem to forget, I don't think DD is a complete abomination unto humanity.
    I don't see what this has to do with anything. I was saying that the length of a comic doesn't make it better. You conceded in the above paragraph so no point in going on about it.

    No. They're doing something right if they're selling.
    Surely you wouldn't say this about fake psychics, and those pads people use to suck toxins out of their feets. You should know, as an american, that people buy the stupidest shit.

    Exactly. And I know little of the Doctor. Simply that he changes actors frequently because he is a Time Lord. So ... Yeah. You don't want my opinion, as I lack one
    I can't think of an example you'd be familiar with, but as long as you get what I'm saying.

  8. #88
    Senior Member nisaren's Avatar
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    I'd say that we should probably just agree to disagree here. I come from a scientific background so it's in my nature to look for objective means to support my assertions. Purely subjective discussion is fun but I have a hard time taking it seriously.

  9. #89
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    FLCL is only 6 episodes and is considered one of the best anime in history. "standing the test of time" doesn't mean that it's continuous over a long period. It means that you can revisit it ten years later and still enjoy it. It doesn't decay.

    Uniqueness is a great thing. Recall that manga is an art form and art is more or less defined by the artist. Cake defines his work with his personality.

    And as far as influence or fame, I'd like to direct you to various "underrated games/books/movies/comics" followings. A lot of excellent things never get famous. Treasure of the Rudras, one of my favorite SNES RPGs, had an absolutely brilliant magic system that would've set an excellent industry standard. Did it? No.

    Really, no matter how you look at it, numbers are only relevant half the time.

  10. #90
    Senior Member nisaren's Avatar
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    I think we're experiencing a bit of a misunderstanding at the moment.

    I never said that in order for something or someone to be considered "great" that it would have to match up with all metrics, just at least 1 or more. This is what I meant when I said that the measurements were meant to be inclusive not exclusive.

    I'm sure FLCL, if it is considered to be one of the best anime in history (I don't know because I'm not familiar with the acronym), has a large fan base and was influential among other artists. It probably sold a lot of DVDs or was viewed a lot. Just because it didn't have a long series count doesn't exclude it, since those examples I listed were merely ideas for things that could grant inclusion. I'm not sure that I can be much clearer with what I'm trying to say.

    You just have to choose the correct numbers to support what you're saying. Yes, a single measurement may not be relevant half the time, but among all the various measurements there should be at least one that is relevant.

    There are obviously some works and artists that are controversial as far as being called great. They have a couple metrics working for them and several against. That's where fun debate comes into play and subjectivity has its place.

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