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Thread: The Contrarian Corner - Smashing Modern Warfare 2

  1. #21
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    I don't care if it's a clan camping. If you can't move a person from a single spot that is your fault.
    Will touch on this.

    If they only move once, they should only get 1-2 more kills max before they die/have to move again. This is not camping.
    Camping involves moving, especially when killcams exist. Whenever I would camp manor I'd chill in the bedroom or whatever and kill a guy. Whenever he came back to get me I'd be in the bathroom. Rinse repeat I never had to leave the house. I wasn't camping?

    Sure, but that entails getting the lead first. The other team just needs a few quick kills to take the advantageous spots from the camper(s) and force them to change their strategy.
    Yeah the good team needs to get the lead and then start camping. We agree.

    Damn it jubeh. T_T
    Only the sith deal in absolutes.

    In response to your post responding to john:

    Your fictional team scenario works because its a team against one dude. Even if the campers aren't cooperating as a team they still have the same goal. Kill mans. And so if they see some bumblefuck team struggling really hard to kill one dude behind a rock, they can start picking these guys off from afar. See that, I made up some ridiculous scenario that puts me on top. Its super easy.

    The actual issue is that this rock exists.

    The game designers created the unbeatable rock.

    And once again we agree that the good team should control the rock and camp at it. We aren't so different.

  2. #22
    999 Knights Member Ozzaharwood's Avatar
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    This is exactly why CoD4 was so good.
    1) Camping wasn't well known
    2) Using overkill w/ noobtubes with 3 frags was epicly fun even if you died all the time and got like a 0.2 k/d
    3) It was second to CoD2 for best multi because people played it to have fun not get 4 k/d ratios

  3. #23
    Fenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    Will touch on this.

    Camping involves moving, especially when killcams exist. Whenever I would camp manor I'd chill in the bedroom or whatever and kill a guy. Whenever he came back to get me I'd be in the bathroom. Rinse repeat I never had to leave the house. I wasn't camping?
    That guy is terrible. Just terrible. Once you know someone's up there they have few options. First off, you can enter the second floor from the front or the back (up the logs). Either way, he should have popped a flashbang or stun inside/in front of the bathroom. If you're there he gets a hit marker, he knows you're there, and he can kill you easy. If you aren't there, he know's you've either left the spot or are camping somewhere else on that floor. The rest of that floor can be approached from more than one angle, and you would not know where he was, so if he checked his corners well he could get you before you could react and realign.

    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    Yeah the good team needs to get the lead and then start camping. We agree.

    Only the sith deal in absolutes.

    In response to your post responding to john:

    Your fictional team scenario works because its a team against one dude. Even if the campers aren't cooperating as a team they still have the same goal. Kill mans. And so if they see some bumblefuck team struggling really hard to kill one dude behind a rock, they can start picking these guys off from afar. See that, I made up some ridiculous scenario that puts me on top. Its super easy.
    Not if they are all camping. Most camping spots give you a very narrow view of the battlefield; you're either in a building or looking down a straightaway most times. Especially on bigger maps, having an entire team sitting in their little campgrounds will not usually give them perfect coverage of each other. All it takes is one stealth player to creep past an opening and your team is done. You make it sound as though the spots are designed into the map so each spot covers another spot, creating this inpenatrable formation.

    The main point of me including a whole team aspect is because most campers get kills sitting in one spot, get one kill, and then another because the guy behind the first was too stupid to realize "hey my buddy just got killed as he ran in." You only need one person to beat a camper, but warning your team of their location helps prevent others from falling into the same trap you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    The actual issue is that this rock exists.

    The game designers created the unbeatable rock.

    And once again we agree that the good team should control the rock and camp at it. We aren't so different.
    Sorry, but that was not what I was implying. I said the scenario you gave me made it sound like (a) the rock is unbeatable and (b) these rocks are abundant. There is not unbeatable rock. Nowhere. Name one spot, anywhere in any map of MW2, that cannot be beaten by an opposing player. Even one. I guarantee you I'll give you at least two options for taking down that camper without the aid of teammates.

  4. #24
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    The main point of me including a whole team aspect is because most campers get kills sitting in one spot, get one kill, and then another because the guy behind the first was too stupid to realize "hey my buddy just got killed as he ran in." You only need one person to beat a camper, but warning your team of their location helps prevent others from falling into the same trap you did.
    Again, you are still talking like only one enemy is camping. If you put 2 or 3 enemies camping, and covering each other weak points, then the rush team die, just because the others are playing better according to the game design.

  5. #25
    Fenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    Again, you are still talking like only one enemy is camping. If you put 2 or 3 enemies camping, and covering each other weak points, then the rush team die, just because the others are playing better according to the game design.
    Read the paragraph above that. For your convenience...
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Not if they are all camping. Most camping spots give you a very narrow view of the battlefield; you're either in a building or looking down a straightaway most times. Especially on bigger maps, having an entire team sitting in their little campgrounds will not usually give them perfect coverage of each other. All it takes is one stealth player to creep past an opening and your team is done. You make it sound as though the spots are designed into the map so each spot covers another spot, creating this inpenatrable formation.

  6. #26
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    That guy is terrible. Just terrible. Once you know someone's up there they have few options. First off, you can enter the second floor from the front or the back (up the logs). Either way, he should have popped a flashbang or stun inside/in front of the bathroom. If you're there he gets a hit marker, he knows you're there, and he can kill you easy. If you aren't there, he know's you've either left the spot or are camping somewhere else on that floor. The rest of that floor can be approached from more than one angle, and you would not know where he was, so if he checked his corners well he could get you before you could react and realign.
    There are a couple issues with this theory-gaming scenario. One is apparently you don't have sound on and can't hear people coming. Two is you're assuming that I apparently really suck and have no idea how people can enter the manor. A huge part of multiplayer gaming is the ability to read your opponent. This applies to the guy inside and the guy trying to get in. I could just as easily guess a guy will come up through the back stairs and throw a flash bomb. Really it's inconsequential.

    Also, and I mean this genuinely, you missed the point of what I was saying. Was a camping or was I not? That's what I was asking.

    Not if they are all camping. Most camping spots give you a very narrow view of the battlefield; you're either in a building or looking down a straightaway most times. Especially on bigger maps, having an entire team sitting in their little campgrounds will not usually give them perfect coverage of each other. All it takes is one stealth player to creep past an opening and your team is done. You make it sound as though the spots are designed into the map so each spot covers another spot, creating this inpenatrable formation.
    Coming up with good setups like this is a huge part of the game. I'm not sure what we're even arguing anymore here. If a dude creeps through your setup falls apart and you should change your plans. Are campers also really stupid and unable to adapt? Please tell me more about these mysterious creatures.

    The main point of me including a whole team aspect is because most campers get kills sitting in one spot, get one kill, and then another because the guy behind the first was too stupid to realize "hey my buddy just got killed as he ran in."
    I would submit most campers get kills because they know the maps really well and can exploit predictable patterns that they notice the other team exhibits. Really this doesn't matter.

    You only need one person to beat a camper, but warning your team of their location helps prevent others from falling into the same trap you did.
    Sometimes that's part of the trap. Often if I see two dudes together and I manage to kill one, I'll run away and find a vantage point that gives me a shot to my prior camping spot. When dude 2 comes to avenge his friend, I'm not there but I've got a good shot. Sometimes it's a waste of time. Either way I'm on top.

    Sorry, but that was not what I was implying. I said the scenario you gave me made it sound like (a) the rock is unbeatable and (b) these rocks are abundant. There is not unbeatable rock. Nowhere. Name one spot, anywhere in any map of MW2, that cannot be beaten by an opposing player. Even one. I guarantee you I'll give you at least two options for taking down that camper without the aid of teammates.
    This is a good challenge but once again misses the point. The "unbeatable rock" is just a symptom of how the game is designed. Also you even admit no matter what I say you'll come up with a fictional scenario where your team comes out on top regardless of how divorced it is from practice. It's not helping your argument. If you can show me how the game doesn't promote camping then I'm all ears.

  7. #27
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    So killstreaks work because it promotes hiding in a bush while the rest of your team actually tries to accomplish objectives. In a team based shooter.
    This is basically what people who are 'good' by relative standards do all the time. If you notice that there's someone leading your time by a huge margin of kills, then this is likely what he's doing. Observe yourself, then observe the rest of your team...he is probably nowhere in that bunch. He is hiding somewhere, either KSing or getting a vantage point while the rest of his team acts as a decoy.

    Granted, this only works if not everyone does it. You kind of have to feed off your teammates': 1.) inexperience or 2.) charity, in that they'll rush in order to move the game forward and actually make it fun at their own expense.

  8. #28
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Its funny because when bad company 2 came out you'd get these dudes straight from modern warfare so your team would be like 20 snipers all sitting at the base sniping from afar while you had maybe 3 dudes going for the objective. It just breeds the boring and useless kind of player.

    Though fenn's argument is right in a sense. I mean not when applied to modern warfare, but to other games that try to get people to cooperate but just fall flat in practice like MAG. Until that shit is hard-wired into the game it's just not going to work.

  9. #29
    Fenn
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    Okay jubeh, you did a good job making clear, concise points so instead of replying per paragraph I'll reply to it generally. First, let's restate your argument, as I understand it: COD is a bad game because camping is the best tactic and most encouraged by the game.

    Now, my argument: camping is promoted primarily as a result of the average IQ of the gaming community, not because of the mechanics.

    Regarding your manor scenario, I did not catch what you were trying to do. I would say you are camping, but to clarify, it is a much different form than the majority of campers in this game. You were actually moving, however slightly, and holding down the entire area, and using your prediction and awareness skills to cut off his options. At first you made it sound like you sat still in the bathroom (spot A), with on hand on the controller with your finger over RT waiting, got a kill, moved mechanically to spot B, put finger over RT, kill, repeat. There's no way you could do that against an equally skilled player, who would know to equip a ninja class, flashbangs, and some explosives to facilitate flushing you out. It would turn into a battle of wits and experience, which is what competition is supposed to be. Am I missing something? I'd like to pose a new argument: is your kind of camping so bad for gameplay?

    I also think a lot of this confusion is that I'm assuming campers are all idiots, and you're assuming all rushers are idiots, but I could be wrong.

    However, to you next point: does COD promote camping or not? Yes, but not to so great a level as you suggest. A skilled camper, like yes. Moving from spot-to-spot, ambushing, yes. That is certainly A (but not THE) strong tactic. Chilling in a single corner for 10 minutes stationary, as the majority of randoms do in matchmaking, most definitely not. That is the fault of the players.

    And, here's how it does't: flashbangs/stuns, RPGs, ninja pro, , semtex/frag, Danger Close, SitRep, mics (this works both ways actually) and most of all the grenade launcher. In fact, I'm surprised no one's mentions OMA/DC GLs yet; I found that much more game-breaking than camping.

  10. #30
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Camping is the best tactic. Let's not talk about this like it's just camper vs. a team full of rushdown folk. Let's say it's a camper with an okay team of balanced players vs. another balanced team. The camper controls one major point on the map where one is either required to pass through or will inevitably end up due to the flow of that particular map (say, the rocky cliff in Jungle [BlackOps ref]). As the member of the second team, you simply don't have the resource of time to sit there and scout out a camper, carefully approach him, and take him out, especially since you have the entire rest of his team to worry about. And every failed attempt is points lost to the other team. That is the biggest advantage of being a camper: drawing attention away from yourself, knowing well that the other teams' members cannot focus on you at the risk of losing momentum in the game. Camping is the only tactic that has this advantage. It's really just...a glorified distraction in the large scale of things.

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