My AA thread - Updated 06/28/14
Pleasure =/= self-benefit. Doing something because it brings you pleasure and doing something because it mathematically gives you more are different. When you perform an act of charity, it is because you value that act more than the selfish alternative. Read that again: YOU VALUE. You are acting out of a desire to fulfill your value. That is selfish.
It's worth saying that selfish, in this context, is not intended to be negative at all.
Helping those in need for personal benefit is entirely possible, thus your definition cannot be correct.
What do you mean by "truest self-interest?" It sounds to me like you are using it to mean "perfect world" or "ideal." Regardless, I say these men you speak of are self-interested. It is these men's desire to survive and earn the means to better their life that drives them to work, not society. Every act is affected by outside forces, of course, but in the end The values of society have little to do with a man's drive to survive or self-interest; they only help to create the environment that he has to work with in working towards this interest. In short: these men want money to fulfill their self-interest. Whether or not they have to work to achieve this is irrelevant.
Then define a benefit, please. I think you need to find different words for the ideas you're expressing. If there is no desirable outcome from an action, it is non-beneficial. Charity is, by all objective standards, non-beneficial. So there must be some intrinsic value that the individual takes pleasure in, right?Pleasure =/= self-benefit.
Then can we stop using that word?It's worth saying that selfish...is not intended to be negative at all.
devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives."So self-interest is no different than completing compulsory tasks with no discernible benefit? How is that different from just "doing stuff"? Apparently you and Delphinus are talking about two different kinds of self-interest.My example just stated that self-interest was based on a desire to fulfill something that one values!
You can argue that with Marriam-Webster....your definition cannot be correct.
What people truly want to do. Our value of currency is something born from standardized society. I'm sure many people would choose not to value currency but, because there is not a single place in the world that doesn't, they are forced by circumstance to value it.What do you mean by "truest self-interest?"
You said every action that is motivated by one's own values is self-interested. I'm telling you that not every value is self-derived and, thus not every action is self-interested.
What? Your entire charity argument crutches on this being false.The values of society have little to do with...self-interest.
It is entirely relevant because your previous argument was that all self-motivated actions are self-interested. My point was that not all actions are self-motivated, nor do all actions follow an individual's truest desires.Whether or not they have to work to achieve this is irrelevant.
^ I haven't forgot about you. Still musing
It's cool, man. No pressure.
I think too much pressure leads to debates that end too early haha. So take your time, dude.
I honestly believe it's okay to rape ugly girls, fat girls, and all boys/men.
^ Screw that, it's okay to rape anyone.
Originally Posted by Fenn
I'll kill you if you rape my fiancee. It's okay to kill anyone, right?
That too, but it's also okay for me to kidnap your fiancée, rape her, and gun you down.
Originally Posted by Fenn
I'm pretty sure my fiancee doesn't meet your absurd standards, so I'm quite alright with you feeling that way.