Morality and ethics: what are your values and why?

**Bacon_Barbarian** · 05-10-2011, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by CypressDahlia

You would say all working men are self-interested, right? Wrong. I'm sure a good number of them wish they could get by without working. But because we live in a society that values currency, they are forced to adopt those interests. Ultimately, they are not serving their truest self-interest.

Of course they're self interested. I think you're right it may not be their "truest" self interest, but if they want to live and make money, then yeah, they're doing that stuff out of self interest.

Fenn · 05-10-2011, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by CypressDahlia

Yes, you explained it and I kindly disagreed. You're saying people give more than they receive in the pursuit of pleasure. From an economical perspective, that makes no sense. From a logical perspective, that makes no sense. What I'm saying is, if people were really in it for self-benefit, there are many legal, ethically sound alternatives they could invest in that return far more than charity does. So why is it people insist on being charitable, knowing they lose far more than they could ever gain? Because there is selflessness in the world. So yeah, I'm not saying everyone who donates to charity is selfless, but that not everyone is selfish.

Pleasure is not quantifiable. I never said that the sacrifice required for pleasure is greater than the reward; that is entirely subjective. It depends on how much the individual values the pleasure, and how much they value what is being sacrificed. You are viewing things from a purely practical and material perspective and, although many times more material goods leads to more pleasure, more material goods does not automatically equal more pleasure.

Pleasure =/= self-benefit. Doing something because it brings you pleasure and doing something because it mathematically gives you more are different. When you perform an act of charity, it is because you value that act more than the selfish alternative. Read that again: YOU VALUE. You are acting out of a desire to fulfill your value. That is selfish.

It's worth saying that selfish, in this context, is not intended to be negative at all.

Originally Posted by CypressDahlia

Again, I disagree with you. First of all, self-interest and values are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, "helping those in need" is, by definition, not self-serving. You are abstracting the terms "self-interest" and "self-serving" to the point where they don't even mean anything anymore. Thirdly, this only works under the assumption that the action is self-motivated. Not all actions are motivated by oneself. In truth, most of our actions are responses to various worldly pressures. You would say all working men are self-interested, right? Wrong. I'm sure a good number of them wish they could get by without working. But because we live in a society that values currency, they are forced to adopt those interests. Ultimately, they are not serving their truest self-interest.

Of course they aren't (self-interest and values). My example just stated that self-interest was based on a desire to fulfill something that one values!

Helping those in need for personal benefit is entirely possible, thus your definition cannot be correct.

What do you mean by "truest self-interest?" It sounds to me like you are using it to mean "perfect world" or "ideal." Regardless, I say these men you speak of are self-interested. It is these men's desire to survive and earn the means to better their life that drives them to work, not society. Every act is affected by outside forces, of course, but in the end The values of society have little to do with a man's drive to survive or self-interest; they only help to create the environment that he has to work with in working towards this interest. In short: these men want money to fulfill their self-interest. Whether or not they have to work to achieve this is irrelevant.

**CypressDahlia** · 05-11-2011, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Fenn

Pleasure is not quantifiable.

Yes, which is partly what makes your argument impossible to follow. In order for charity to be ultimately beneficial, it requires that some intrinsic value (such as pleasure) be quantifiable and worth more than what's given. Otherwise, there are neither subjective nor objective benefits to being charitable.

Pleasure =/= self-benefit.

Then define a benefit, please. I think you need to find different words for the ideas you're expressing. If there is no desirable outcome from an action, it is non-beneficial. Charity is, by all objective standards, non-beneficial. So there must be some intrinsic value that the individual takes pleasure in, right?

It's worth saying that selfish...is not intended to be negative at all.

Then can we stop using that word?

"–adjective
1.
devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2.
characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives."

My example just stated that self-interest was based on a desire to fulfill something that one values!

So self-interest is no different than completing compulsory tasks with no discernible benefit? How is that different from just "doing stuff"? Apparently you and Delphinus are talking about two different kinds of self-interest.

...your definition cannot be correct.

You can argue that with Marriam-Webster.

What do you mean by "truest self-interest?"

What people truly want to do. Our value of currency is something born from standardized society. I'm sure many people would choose not to value currency but, because there is not a single place in the world that doesn't, they are forced by circumstance to value it.

You said every action that is motivated by one's own values is self-interested. I'm telling you that not every value is self-derived and, thus not every action is self-interested.

The values of society have little to do with...self-interest.

What? Your entire charity argument crutches on this being false.

Whether or not they have to work to achieve this is irrelevant.

It is entirely relevant because your previous argument was that all self-motivated actions are self-interested. My point was that not all actions are self-motivated, nor do all actions follow an individual's truest desires.