SaiMoe League 2013 Season 3 [Finals!]

[JJJorgie]

Hmm, yes, I believe most people, when voting, mostly focus on the drawing and design. Not to say they don't read the bio or include it in their judging, but I'm sure the designs and actual drawings helps MAJORITY in the decision.

[Regantor]

Even through I obviously explained it pretty badly before, this was exactly what I was talking about when I said making them "personable". Making a good, memorable, lovable character is about more than just maxing out their cutesy cliches, IMO. Adding one or two homely or unusual quirks makes me relate to them far more than if they were just 100 percent cute.

Consider how super man is too 'vanilla super hero' for alot of people; It's the same sort of thing.

My own character designs tend to take this to a ludicrous extent, through, so of course it's all in the eye of the beholder, at the end of the day. People should vote for the ones that make the most impact on them, simple as. ;I

[Blue_Dragon]

Second, it may be named Sai Moe contest, but you need to accept the fact that people vote for what they want, and even if moe means "cute" I will vote for any one I believe its worth it. If you want it to win the one which is "cute", then pick judges, because people are going to vote for what they believe it should win.

"Biography" aside, if that's the case, this is not a "sai moe" contest. This whole contest was started to create and judge characters of a specific genre. If I decide to vote in a horror contest, I'm not going to vote for a image or story that's a romance. And if I do, then I'm not the appropriate person to judge.

Seeing as most people--even here on a manga website--don't get what moe is, then I agree that perhaps judges should be in order? I like how it's set up for anyone on the site being able to vote and get involved, but the people submitting are trying their best to fit the specified genre, and if the voters don't use the submission criteria, then it's not fair to people working to fit that criteria. Just like Reg's swim suit submission: she was different, but she was still cute. And it took skill for him to not only create a cute character, but also a different character.

In regards to the bio: first, it's a requirement. So, if it's going to be required, then voters should respect the artists and read it. Second, while I don't think it gives everyone a leg up, the biography does show that the artist put thought into their character. That is something I take into account when I vote. I sometimes vote for the image that is less professional because the bio fleshes the character out more, or has an interesting twist to it. I think Obitual Crow had a character a while back that was some kind of evolved plant, but I wouldn't have known that just from his images: and he's a fantastic artist that provided many different posses and emotions. I also really liked a few contests back the chick character that was a sailor, not just for the image, but because of the story that went along with her.

I'd also argue that these contests are to help the artist develop their skills. I for one have used this contest to help me flesh out current or future manga characters-through drawing, and through writing. I stand by my argument that the biography is important. It's not just about winning, it's also about improving your skills, and character creation and development is a part of that.

placing the personality in the design

I agree with this. In fact, most of what Clock said, I can agree to. However, I do think the people voting need consider the rules and stipulations if they're going to vote. If we've put hard work into our submissions, then it shouldn't kill someone to read a bit before clicking a couple buttons. I don't know about everyone else, but I find it very difficult to pick who I want to vote for--even when it's between a beginner and a professional. **not saying I'm a great voter, just saying I try to look at the criteria and judge which best follows it**

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[ClockHand]

"Biography" aside, if that's the case, this is not a "sai moe" contest. This whole contest was started to create and judge characters of a specific genre. If I decide to vote in a horror contest, I'm not going to vote for a image or story that's a romance. And if I do, then I'm not the appropriate person to judge.

But you see, I wouldn't vote for the "cutest", and I, already one individual on this entire forum, would vote for a reason that it is not the one displayed in the name of the contest then I can affirm that more people would vote for a different reason than the one displayed in the contests name. The thing is, its an open voting, so you can't tell people the reasons or elements to take in consideration when they vote and if you which that certain elements would be taken in consideration then you shouldn't have made an open voting on the first place.

I like how it's set up for anyone on the site being able to vote and get involved, but the people submitting are trying their best to fit the specified genre, and if the voters don't use the submission criteria, then it's not fair to people working to fit that criteria.

But you see, if there is no one actually looking each OC with specific criteria in mind, then why bother following those criteria? Stating that everyone is gonna vote for the "cutest" is a fallacy as you are assuming before hand that people will throw their reasons, biases and rationality just for the sake of that element, which is a lie. People are going to come here, look each one of those (probably not even bother on reading) and vote for what they find more appealing; yes some people may read, other may do it random, other may even just vote for the member they like, but this just reinforce the idea that an open voting system can't be regulated.

In regards to the bio: first, it's a requirement. So, if it's going to be required, then voters should respect the artists and read it. Second, while I don't think it gives everyone a leg up, the biography does show that the artist put thought into their character. That is something I take into account when I vote. I sometimes vote for the image that is less professional because the bio fleshes the character out more, or has an interesting twist to it.

But you see thats your criteria to vote, and you cannot force other people to vote that way, I mean, we are not fascist nor dictators to force people to vote under certain circumstances. By example I don't read bio, because I believe the design (or character), is the one who must talk to me, the artist must talk through the character, not through his words (and this is a rule I use with many art forms, as if I presume art is communication, then you can't place words in it, as you would be accepting that art is not a good way to communicate your thought and soo you need to write down your thoughts because art was an inferior communicative medium). So Ya, I don't take in account what the artist wrote, I just take in account what the artist show, but I cannot tell you to vote this way, neither to force you or make you change your vote or tell your way is worst or anything, because you vote fairly in what you considered right, which again, even the guy who vote just because he likes X member is voting rightly and fair, and that its the "beauty" and "horror" of an open voting system.

[theAnimeRebel]

By example I don't read bio, because I believe the design (or character), is the one who must talk to me, the artist must talk through the character, not through his words (and this is a rule I use with many art forms, as if I presume art is communication, then you can't place words in it, as you would be accepting that art is not a good way to communicate your thought and soo you need to write down your thoughts because art was an inferior communicative medium). So Ya, I don't take in account what the artist wrote, I just take in account what the artist show, but I cannot tell you to vote this way, neither to force you or make you change your vote or tell your way is worst or anything, because you vote fairly in what you considered right, which again, even the guy who vote just because he likes X member is voting rightly and fair, and that its the "beauty" and "horror" of an open voting system.

You do realize how terribly contradictory this is right? Manga is a form that uses both words and pictures to tell a story. While the art can often times stand on its own, that's not exactly the point. It's kind of aggravating when a person puts a lot of effort into something/puts the best foot forward and you tear them down and call it trash... I don't see YOUR entry in this contest.

*ahem* Anyways...

That being said, I must admit that I didn't vote according to which one I thought was "cutest," but the one that showed the most effort and thought, plus meeting the criteria for "moe."

[Blue_Dragon]

I agree with you Clock, that you can't force people to vote a certain way or force them to take the criteria into account, which is why I like your idea of having judges: personally, I think it should have a scoring system--so many points for creativity, originality, personality, skill, etc.

But I'm sure Mikuru doesn't have time to set up a board or organize that, so the only answer I could think of would be to pop a bold sentence onto the page telling voter's what the genre is and what the basis is. Otherwise, the contest should just be "Character Drawing Contest," with no genre at all. If there's going to be a genre, then the judges/voters need to take that into account. It's like if you were watching that Face Off contest, and the contestants were told to do a dragon with different Chinese Zodiacs included (which happened) and a contestant made a blue koala with purple dots that was hella realistic, and everyone voted for the koala because it was the best executed. The other contestants followed the criteria, and got screwed for it. If it was a free for all, they could have competed more fairly. Does this analogy make more sense?

[ClockHand]

Animerebel@

I don't find it contradictory at all. First of all I'm not assuming Manga is a form of art, and before you start going in a aimless berserk let me prove it. I do not consider manga an art form because its basically a highly audience focus product; when you have a product that its that focused on the audience, when the genres are determinate by "who is going to buy them", when the story structure is copy pasted for the sake of "this is what X demographic likes" or when characters are made to later become products (toys, tshirts, stickers and others), you are not making a piece of art but rather a product, reason Warhol is considered to have killed art as he did basically did the same with his "art", making it highly audience based, making it easy to reproduce and using marketable faces.

Also, if we start discussing graphic novels as an art form (which there are many examples of artistically valued graphic novels), we need to understand that its communicational value is considerable different from simple "paint art" or illustrations, as how you state it, there are words to tell the story. But this is important, if we are talking about graphic novels and the use of words we also need to understand that the base of any graphic novel story is "show don't tell" which mean that the story must be understandable at least in it basic identity just by looking the panels without any word. And this principle is also used in movies and other visual medias.

Finally I also have to add that I stated that this principle as: "many form of art", which mean I'm not referring to every form of art and its not determinism, but I do use it a lot in any form of art that must tell the story, concept, idea or thesis just through the image. Obviously comics use words, but which made them a different case, different "art form" and so different principles, but as I said, they still are under the principle of "show don't tell" (even soo, more artistic and vanguardist comics may go over this principle for the sake of its artistic value). Also my reasons to my appearance in the contest is not your business and it neither affects my arguments.



Bluedragon@

I think a better analogy (as I don't know that contest) is American Idol, you can sing like shit and still people can vote for you if you are likable. Judges in American Idol can tell the singer that he was awful, that people shouldn't vote for him because there is more talented people, or they could try to make people follow principles to vote, but its an open voting system, you need to accept at the end that people will vote as they like and that its completely fair under that voting system.

[Blue_Dragon]

True, the American Idol analogy works, if that's how it's done (I don't watch that show :/ Face-Off is more interesting to me, it's a special effects make-up/creature creation competition, just FYI. It is also judged solely by people in the film industry/potential peers, like special effects artists.)

I guess the argument boils down to which type of voting one prefers. I prefer the voting to be done similar to critiquing or grading in college or the art world (in which case, I still loose,) because I feel those people are more particular about the piece as a whole-which includes information about the character in this case (even if your art is "crap," if you can defend and explain it, you can still pass or it be considered art) and can as a result help the artist grow and improve. Whereas with the open voting, it's more "I personally think this looks best," with little to no regard for the development of the character or the work put into trying to follow the rules. This is a fine way to vote if there are no rules to follow. But there are guidelines set up for the artist because this was created to be a contest of cute vs cute. If you want to vote for just the best drawn character, then I think a different contest should be started for that. And no matter how a person ends up voting, it doesn't hurt to remind the voters, or at least request, they take a look at the what the artists had to do, and the background of the character. I don't think most people would mind doing that.

[ClockHand]

I think that, the judge based system is useless if you want to make long life time contests like this (that basically make 20 threads for every contest, making loser brackets, winners-winners brackets, winner-loser bracket, and everyone get lost and doesn't enrich no one because no one learns anything). But as you, I find judge based system quite good to let know the contestants that at least they are being judged in a clear way, also I like judge based system if the judges explain and make points of their reasons, because in this way the contestants can know the reasons why they lost or won and also know the direction they must take to keep improving.

[MiKuRu]

Guys I said this before. IF you have any complains or if you want to clarify/give suggestions then please do it in the official thread. This is THE VOTING THREAD and is meant for voting or commenting on the characters only so please don't flood it with a whole long bunch of texts and complains/suggestions w/e huuhaa :[. Thanks you very much.


PS: Next Voting will be up on Friday.[ Now I read all your suggestions/complains etcetc already. I found somethings rather....... How do I put this.. Interesting... or weird because I think I did fix a few of the above already BUT anyway I have taken everything above into consideration and will be doing a full modifications on the competition so that I can make it more fair for everyone. But I'll only do it after season 1 ends. If you have anything else to say please.... You know where to direct it to..]