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Thread: ACTA: How to destroy humanity and freedom of speech.

  1. #91
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    I think we must have posted a few seconds apart or something.

    It's not that I don't care because the government doesn't affect me, it's that prioritizing what the government "might" do over proactively fighting what our average citizens are known to do is silly. We should be mad at the government for possibly detaining us, yet most of us couldn't care less about the atrocities committed by our fellow citizens. Where is the sense in that? Fighting big government just because it's big government is pointless. When you consider the scale of atrocities committed by common people versus that of the government, the government is a rank two concern.

  2. #92
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Outside of the drug cartels of Central America and South America I am unaware of any private citizens or organizations of private citizens which cause human suffering on as large or as wide a scale as the government and armed forces of the United States of America. I am further unaware of any private citizen or citizens who have access to nuclear weapons, or who have access to the ability to restrict the flow of free information and send people who try to circumvent this restriction to rape dungeons.

    Crime is a concern. You'd have to be a moron to think otherwise. But first and foremost, there is not an economy of giving a fuck. People can, and should, care about the actions of dangerous citizens, and the actions of monstrously corrupt and evil organizations like the USA. Second, the government and those working for it are far more likely to harm people than private citizens. As an American citizen living in America, yes, the odds are greater of you being killed or grievously harmed by another citizen then by the government, but at the rate things are going, I highly doubt that will continue to be true. Further, American citizens are not the only people who's wellbeing matters, or ought be considered.

    And rereading your post: "When you consider the scale of atrocities committed by common people versus that of the government, the government is a rank two concern. "

    Tell me when common people dropped atomic weapons on two cities. I missed that incident.

    And to be on topic: I do not believe ACTA will pass. I think it's important we fight it proactively, just in case, but I highly doubt it will pass. Same for SOPA and PIPA and their successors. It's like Brave New World - the governments want to keep up preoccupied and docile with mindless media, so that we continue to fail to notice or care about the massive red white and blue dick being shoved up our asses.

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  3. #93
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    I'm personally more concerned about who's being killed now than who might or might not be jailed in some undisclosed time in the future, under very specific circumstances that might or might not exist.

    The atom bombs killed, at most, an estimated 240,000 people. In a period of 6 years (1960-'66), US citizens managed to kill over 600,000 people. It's been 66 years since the atom bomb. You do the math. Also, since 1973, our citizens have been equally responsible for any and all war efforts of the US. That's when the draft ended. All of our servicemen, since then, have been volunteers ie. willing to kill in the name of the United States. And we all know how much of an atrocity the War on Terror was.

    That's not to say the atom bombs weren't a tragedy. They were, a huge one. But nothing except the Holocaust is more tragic than our domestic murder rates.

    Not to mention Bush's approval ratings skyrocketed to 78% (from 50%) once he declared war on Iraq. US citizens wanted that war, US citizens willfully fought that war and over 600,000 //civilian// Iraqis, not soldiers, not agents of the opposing army, but civilians were killed by US citizens.

  4. #94
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Our focus should be more on //community//, bringing our fellow citizens out of the trends of murder, drug addiction and gang violence, not government fear-mongering. Join an urban youth club or something.
    Yippee skippee fucking doo-da, let's create a utopia of community and mutual love and peace. Individualism is the greatest evil; provided people have COMMUNITY and FRIENDSHIP they'll be happy. Oh and there's a couple of examples of this already. Praise be!

    Btw here are two totally unrelated videos about COMMUNITY and HAPPINESS. They don't describe the same event or anything





    Serious edit: The sort of community programs you're talking about are a facile sham designed to promote what I can only describe as tediously middle-class values of love, mutual respect, etc. They don't promote self-respect, just respect for one's neighbours. A real sense of community comes from having something in common with others, and being able to talk to others in a civilised manner, not from working together to repaint the fucking school. People can and ought to be rude to and angry at one another sometimes. It helps vent frustrations. The problems with gangs and drugs are due to people relying on external factors for their happiness, rather than focusing on their individuation, and traditional community programs promote this and just channel people's external needs into other groups. Alcoholics Anonymous gets people addicted to God, for example.
    Last edited by Delphinus; 02-03-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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  5. #95
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    ...what?

    I'm not sure where you're going with this at all. I mentioned nothing about creating a utopia, I simply stated that making a community effort to stop Americans from slaughtering each other is a lot more beneficial than promoting paranoia over what the government might could possibly do in the near future. We're in an uproar because the government might could possibly detain some of us but the truth is that the government is, in terms of being a direct threat to our people, nothing compared to the people themselves. We just have this strange "us" versus "them" mentality which is undoubtedly rooted in some form of classism that makes us assume all non-corporate, sub-gentry Americans actually care about what's best for this country and its people. The government is often stupid. The last two administrations have a track record of making poor decisions. But to say that they are the greater evil is nothing less than deceptive. The biggest problems society faces: murder, theft, rape, drug trafficking, gangbanging are mostly the doings of the citizens, not the governing body. These problems spawn on the community level and it's going to take a strong community commitment to fix them.

    Point being: 4.5 million people signed a petition to fight SOPA. When's the last time even a million people signed a petition to increase funding for education in urban areas? We turn our backs on our community and watch the world go to shit and then act like the "big bad government" is the largest threat to our humanity? It's laughable.


    EDIT: Speak for yourself, Delphinus. You're just being an armchair cynic. I'm part of two urban youth clubs and the DC Dance Collective. Many of our young members testify that their involvement with us has given them a better outlook on life, improved the quality of their relationships, given them friends, important experiences, kept them out of gangs and, in some cases, prevented potential suicides. So yeah, dude, it's not all smoke and mirrors.
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 02-03-2012 at 03:20 PM.

  6. #96
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
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    Surely you recognise that the government and other large organisations (particularly media companies, particularly the 'big five') have a role in controlling social behaviour? If so, then the government is an enormous threat to our humanity. Not that I believe people are mere pawns to socialisation (I know from myself and others that socialising is a sliding scale), but practically everything we do is a result of our environment and how it affects us. The government determines the most basic facts about the way we socialise with other people and how we interact; taking a wholly interactionist perspective on such a complex issue seems just as foolish as taking a constructivist one.

    As for being an armchair cynic: making people happier doesn't make them better. An unhappy person who thinks critically is better than a happy little drone.

    EDIT: For god's sake a gang member who's doing it for a reason other than 'makes me feel part of something' is better than a happy little drone.
    Last edited by Delphinus; 02-03-2012 at 06:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn
    You forgot your F in Modesty.

  7. #97
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    I don't deny that the government has bearing over how we do things. I wouldn't say the media is the biggest perpetrator, though. The media is fed by the things we, as people want to see. It's not like the media simply generates influence; the influence derives from exploiting our flawed value system. In short, the media is simply an opportunistic entity, the problem lies in our core values. I'd say the biggest influence the gov. has over our daily lives is through bureaucracy, but that's stuff that was said in the Free Will thread.

    As for "happy little drones", you do realize that many youth programs train their recruits in areas of business expertise and leadership, offer tutoring for all academic subjects on top of community projects, right? Even then, there's something to be learned from "fucking painting a school". Like the value of cooperation and the understanding that a better environment doesn't just materialize, it takes the effort of the community as a whole. But even among the kids that I've solely taught dancing to, I have never seen more genuine fulfillment than when they master something or learn something new. If you said that to their faces, they would probably give you a very earnest middle finger.

    And no, buddy, there is no "good" kind of gang member. I can't believe you would even say that.

  8. #98
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    I don't deny that the government has bearing over how we do things. I wouldn't say the media is the biggest perpetrator, though. The media is fed by the things we, as people want to see. It's not like the media simply generates influence; the influence derives from exploiting our flawed value system. In short, the media is simply an opportunistic entity, the problem lies in our core values. I'd say the biggest influence the gov. has over our daily lives is through bureaucracy, but that's stuff that was said in the Free Will thread.
    The media both reflects and forms our culture; the extent to which it does one or the other is a matter for consideration and academic research. Either way I don't see how this debate is going to go further or be productive in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    As for "happy little drones", you do realize that many youth programs train their recruits in areas of business expertise and leadership, offer tutoring for all academic subjects on top of community projects, right?
    Business expertise and academic subjects are not the same as learning to think. Well, not the same as learning to think about important things as opposed to areas that are interesting but not pivotal. You can run the most successful business in the world and be a brilliant professor and still be a racist, misogynistic pedophile. Without wanting to sound like I'm some sort of philosophy snob, I think more time needs to be dedicated to philosophy and ethics, in particular how it relates to society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Even then, there's something to be learned from "fucking painting a school". Like the value of cooperation and the understanding that a better environment doesn't just materialize, it takes the effort of the community as a whole. But even among the kids that I've solely taught dancing to, I have never seen more genuine fulfillment than when they master something or learn something new. If you said that to their faces, they would probably give you a very earnest middle finger.
    Skills are nice. Learning that big projects require lots of people to make them work is nice. But that's all they are: nice. Like I implied above, you can be a 'team player' or a fantastic artist or whatever, but it's all worthless if you're still ultimately attached to your community more than yourself. Gang members are attached to a community; it's a criminal one, but it fills the same damn role in their lives as a more broadly-accepted one does. Maybe I'm just anti-social, but I've always seen dependence on a community rather than on one's own impetus to be a form of weakness and dependence. To quote Ferris Bueller (that great philosopher ): "-Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself."

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    And no, buddy, there is no "good" kind of gang member. I can't believe you would even say that.
    Well, is it better to do what you feel compelled to do even if it involves hurting and killing other people, or to sacrifice your own happiness to maintain a moral standard? That's the debate that's dominated the modern era, in one form or another. Individualism or collectivism?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn
    You forgot your F in Modesty.

  9. #99
    Moderator Psy's Avatar
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    Keep it closer to the topic. I can see from the posts how everything posted is some what relevant to the topic but it's starting to skew way off track.

  10. #100
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
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    Can you split the thread or something, Psy? There's an interesting conversation here, but you're right: it's not really related to ACTA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn
    You forgot your F in Modesty.

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