Ying Yang Member
Free will. Do we really have it?
Okay so I was raised in a christian family but have recently been struggling with my faith and with one issue in particular.
Premise 1: I believe that pre-destination is wrong. A God that is supposedly all loving would not create people in the full knowledge that they were going to hell. What mother would have a baby when they knew that as soon as they had it the baby would be totured and killed?
Premise 2: (and the main issue) We cannot control where and to whom we are born. The one thing that will effect everything about the rest of our existance; our personality,our culture, our values our way of life, how we see our selves, the chain of cause and effect that is the rest of our lives. Thus if we cannot choose to be in a position were Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) has any bearing on our lives or that we end up having a personality that will accept or decline it is beyond our control; how is being a Christian a matter of choice? And if it is not a choice then God is a douchebag for sending people to hell just because he made them.
Any philosophers among you care to enlighten me?
Last edited by Peteman; 12-01-2011 at 11:08 PM.
There is no free will, you are not free and neither is your will. Forget this stupid dreams and go back to study.
Ruler of the Seventh Empire
Ya see, this is one of those things that'll keep going on and on and on and on. It's like that choice debate I got into a while ago. There's no end, the only answer that'll remain true, is the one you can supply for yourself. Not to mention the brains around here will most undoubtedly say no.
If your asking for biblical answers, There is a record that God can control human will.
And there is a record that children will bear their parents sin, Something like that.
That's the philosophy of why we inherit the bad personalities of our parents, or good qualities.
I'm not the type who will say what verse or whatever lol, But I'm pretty sure it's in Exodus.
Still this place is full of Atheist so I'm pretty sure you'll get bad responses.
Ying Yang Member
Im not particularly looking for biblical answers I'm looking for logical ones. Or is my logic correct?
Last edited by Peteman; 12-01-2011 at 11:36 PM.
Super Senior Member
There is no free will due to how powerful social conditioning is. If we all made a basic timeline of our lives up until this point, I'm sure they would say almost identical things. We are groomed by society to live certain ways to achieve certain goals, "success" being the biggest one.
That's a bit extreme. Is our free will limited at times by the incredible force of social conditioning? Yes. But to say we have no free will is to say we have no meaningful choices, and even with the most powerful social conditioning, this is false.
Originally Posted by CypressDahlia
@Peteman: From a physical. atomic standpoint we have no free will. Our fate is a direct result of (to go ALL THE WAY back,) the Big Bang, and the paths of the particles that currently make up our body, especially our brain, from the beginning of time until now. Since our brain is made up of matter, and matter follows specific, rigid natural laws, we have no real control over them.
That being said, from a social point of view, all properly functioning human beings have free will in the form of choice. Predestined or not, we FEEL as though we have the choice, and if you act on the idea that you have no say in your fate by deciding to do nothing, you are still making a choice that you are responsible for. It's a necessary illusion. (Psalm 14, Kodos, 2010)
Fifty Fifty Member
GunZ, remember arguing about this with Kodos on the middle MT?
Super Senior Member
How is it extreme, fenn? Are you saying that you and I will not live similar lives? Or that most of our 6.8 billion people don't live similar lives? Our choices in life are extremely limited by the predetermined path that society has chosen for us. In fact, our litmus for living well is usually based on comparisons we make between each others' lifestyles.
He asked if people have free will, not whether people live similar/unique lives. Physically, we are guided by physics and biology. Perceptually, we are guided by the illusion of choice.
Anyway, I don't think we're THAT similar. Looking only at the big picture prevents you from seeing the specific choices people face that can change their life in significant ways. A wrong word destroys a relationship. A right step leads to unexpected success. To say that our every decision is forced upon us by an overwhelming social construct is not accurate. I can provide more specific examples if you want.