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Thread: Comic/Manga Discussion Thread [Literalness]

  1. #21
    Super Senior Member Celestial-Fox's Avatar
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    From what I've been informed by numerous Film students, the ease with which someone views a scene in film is dependent on which direction the viewer is used to reading in. (That is, movement from RTL in a native LTR reader would make them uncomfortable because they are unused to acquiring new information this way.) Somehow I think that the same would apply for comics--?

  2. #22
    Zeta Members ram's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure of how comics would go. I've only seen western paneling style of Left to right, I think it would be weird to see one in right to left,

    If it's manga or OEL manga then the panneling style would be weird if it's left to right, I've seen tons of OEL manga that's left to right and I don't think I liked it that much, I don't know maybe it's just me.

  3. #23
    Devilish Member Inksprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    I know, that is the weak part of my point (still I could show you other studies about the right use of the brain, but I have nothing directly related to comics), but let's accept the hypothesis, and so face this problem of reading from left to right or right to left for this perspective.

    I really don't consider this crazy, and I think it has a lot of sense, we use our left side for rational thoughts, it has been proved. And it has been proved that doing actions in a different direction (let's say write) it also affect our brain. So if the way we read comics is different depending on the direction, should we be forced to chose left to right or right to left depending on what kind of hemisphere of the brain we want our readers to use?

    Again, this question can only born by accepting the previews statement, and as there is no direct prove, we have to face is as theoretical.

    If I am remembering correctly the parts of the brain responsible for speach and reading are in the left hemisphere of the brain. Thats a fact which has been researched, so it doesn't matter which direction we read in, its always being processed by the same part of the brain. Same with the actual process of sight, what you see is always being processed by the same parts of your brain unless there is actually something wrong/different with your brain. When people are talking about left vs right brain they are talking more about how we think than which part of the brain we are using for the specific task. For example if you are reading a text book on physics you're using the one part of your brain to read, but you are thinking about the information in a logical fashion and using your 'left brain' which is more focused on logic. Reading poetry is still using the same part of the brain as before for the reading but to imagine the imagery you're probably going to be thinking about it with your 'right brain'.

    To that end I don't think reading in one direction or the other isn't really related to deeper brain functions. Its simply a matter of familiarity. We're trained to read left to right so when we read right to left its harder to do because was keep looking at the wrong end of the page, reading a bit and then realising we're doing it wrong. It feels uncomfortable to read because for most of us reading is second nature, but reading something which is backwards or upside down forces us to consiously think about how we are reading, something we wouldn't normally do.

  4. #24
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestial-Fox View Post
    From what I've been informed by numerous Film students, the ease with which someone views a scene in film is dependent on which direction the viewer is used to reading in. (That is, movement from RTL in a native LTR reader would make them uncomfortable because they are unused to acquiring new information this way.) Somehow I think that the same would apply for comics--?
    I'm confused, are you talking about the scene or about the translation of scenes? Because there are axis of actions on every scene, and yes the perception of the direction might change depending on the person (even if the director say the axis to X direction), but in comics we see things between scene to scene, so is not the scene what's matter it's the sample of the scenes.

    I don't know if I'm making my self clear, neither I see your point clear (because I don't know if you are talking about the scene or the scenes).

    But I don't know how we should apply it for comics, because you have the scene to scene pretty clear (ltr or rtl), and it tells the reader how to read, in which point in comics this is more forceful than in movies (so if you use your left side of your brain and you must read using it right you can't chose).


    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    I'm not so sure of how comics would go. I've only seen western paneling style of Left to right, I think it would be weird to see one in right to left,

    If it's manga or OEL manga then the paneling style would be weird if it's left to right, I've seen tons of OEL manga that's left to right and I don't think I liked it that much, I don't know maybe it's just me.
    Well thats kinda jump to another point but principally the fault of that are the axis of action in the panel. The mangas are made with a mentality of RTL, so the axis of direction goes with that format. When you change the format but not the action axis you are just screwing the reader (this kinda prove that we use different hemispheres of our brain for this).

    Which bring another point, if we agree with this idea that RTL and LTR are related to different hemisphere of our brain, how we should approach them to avoid noise, like in this example: Action Axis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    If I am remembering correctly the parts of the brain responsible for speach and reading are in the left hemisphere of the brain. Thats a fact which has been researched, so it doesn't matter which direction we read in, its always being processed by the same part of the brain. Same with the actual process of sight, what you see is always being processed by the same parts of your brain unless there is actually something wrong/different with your brain. When people are talking about left vs right brain they are talking more about how we think than which part of the brain we are using for the specific task. For example if you are reading a text book on physics you're using the one part of your brain to read, but you are thinking about the information in a logical fashion and using your 'left brain' which is more focused on logic. Reading poetry is still using the same part of the brain as before for the reading but to imagine the imagery you're probably going to be thinking about it with your 'right brain'.

    To that end I don't think reading in one direction or the other isn't really related to deeper brain functions. Its simply a matter of familiarity. We're trained to read left to right so when we read right to left its harder to do because was keep looking at the wrong end of the page, reading a bit and then realising we're doing it wrong. It feels uncomfortable to read because for most of us reading is second nature, but reading something which is backwards or upside down forces us to consiously think about how we are reading, something we wouldn't normally do.
    But aren't you stepping on your own argument? You said I'm going to read always with the same part of my brain, but you also said that depending what I'm reading will affect other hemispheres of my brain (in the figurative speech of right vs left). So the direction of action can or can't create a influence in the part of the brain we are using? Yes we will be reading using the same part, but also we are being manipulated and this kind of exercise do affect our brain (like write from right to left).
    Last edited by ClockHand; 11-24-2011 at 07:52 PM.

  5. #25
    Devilish Member Inksprout's Avatar
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    Perhaps the direction you are recieving the information in makes a slight difference buit I seriously doubt it. The type of information being looked at makes much more of a difference then how it is set out. I'm saying whether you are thinking about what you read more with your right or left brain is not related at all to the direction you read in, I'm saying that the only things that effect how you're thinking about what you read is what you're actually reading, and how you choose to think about it. Regardless of RTL or LFT looking at a comic is always going to involve more right brain thinking than reading a novel.

    Also what I mean is there is a difference between the act of reading and the act of thinking about what you are reading. Actually reading uses very specific parts on the left side of the brain, without them you literally couldn't read. THINKING about what you read on the other hand can use many different parts of the brain and depends on what you're looking at. RTL or LTR may influence how you think about it, in so far as you have to think more consciously about the act or reading. I am skeptical that it could influence you on any deeper level than that though, because I don't see how the direction its written can control the way your brain percieves it.

    Visually your eyesight is split evenly, one eye sends info to one half of the brain and one eye sends info to the other. Its an even split so at a basic level you can't say that writting one way or the other will cause more info to go to one half of the brain.

  6. #26
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Perhaps the direction you are recieving the information in makes a slight difference but I seriously doubt it. The type of information being looked at makes much more of a difference then how it is set out. I'm saying whether you are thinking about what you read more with your right or left brain is not related at all to the direction you read in, I'm saying that the only things that effect how you're thinking about what you read is what you're actually reading, and how you choose to think about it.
    Then you would say there is no such thing as subliminal messages. Because as I see this it can be a subliminal way to tell the reader with which part of the brain to think what is going on. I'm not saying you literally use your other part of your brain to read, I'm saying that the direction of lecture can work as a subliminal guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Regardless of RTL or LFT looking at a comic is always going to involve more right brain thinking than reading a novel.
    Well, depend on the comic, and I believe a lot of comic readers are going to differ with you, specially because a lot of novels have been downgraded and some comics can have exceptional art or have complex and rational dialogues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Also what I mean is there is a difference between the act of reading and the act of thinking about what you are reading. Actually reading uses very specific parts on the left side of the brain, without them you literally couldn't read. THINKING about what you read on the other hand can use many different parts of the brain and depends on what you're looking at. RTL or LTR may influence how you think about it, in so far as you have to think more consciously about the act or reading. I am skeptical that it could influence you on any deeper level than that though, because I don't see how the direction its written can control the way your brain percieves it.
    I agree with the fact that you use a specific part of your brain, my point goes to subliminal guidance. And I'm not skeptical of that because it has been done and it can be done.

    You have to also understand that a comic are images and dialogues, it has a write part and a visual part and both are read in different ways. If the sequences of the events goes to certain direction I think it can create a subliminal guidance.

  7. #27
    Sir-Mass-a-Lot Sylux's Avatar
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    Clock is on to something huge, guys. Ill use a video game analogy to express this since its all I know. When developing a horror game, you include elements of familiarity at times, and uncertainty most others. This encompasses direction of puzzle, map, and direction of hostile entity entry. You may not have noticed this, but have you ever wondered why the Thresher Maw in Mass Effect (1 only) is so terrifying? Its entry point is unknown, which is obvious. But, in the game Amnesia, the monsters' entry points in the "tutorial" level is always obvious. Later on, they literally come barreling out of the dark of a hallway from thin fucking air. If we read a comic in a familiar fashion, we will feel more comfortable with our method and focus more on immersion and entertainment. If we read it in an unfamiliar way, we are more prone to criticize and say wat do idk whass going on or we become more aware of everything in the comic.

  8. #28
    Lucky Member Blue_Dragon's Avatar
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    I'm wondering, though, if you can't teach yourself to be "ambidextrous" in a way. I mean, I have no problem reading my comics either way. When I started, it was a little difficult to read right to left, but now it's not hard to flip back and forth. Granted, if the words were written right to left, I think I would have trouble.

    .way this read to had I if And .this like wrote I If

    Or even worse, if it was a mirror image, I would have trouble. But I think just having the images read "backwards" to what I'm used to hasn't been too hard to learn or comprehend. I think this study would be neat to do with the words opposite of what one's used to
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  9. #29
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Ok, the discussion has dried so here I come with a new technical discussion in comic books.

    How do you prefer paneling in pages? Do you like it traditional, each panel separated? or Do you like it mixed, characters popping up from panels and no panels?

    Examples:
    Classic.


    Modern.


    Obviously this discussion should go further than "I like that one", but explain why do you like and why do you consider it more proper to work on.

  10. #30
    Devilish Member Black_Shaggie's Avatar
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    I'm partial to the 'classic' composition but only because most of the stuff that I've done over the years was western style comics and that's what I've seen done. The 'modern' composition [to me] actually works better for me now that I'm begining to get the general idea of mangaka (at least shounen). The 'modern' composition tends to be more expressive in my opinion and it allows for the artitist to be more expressive, allthough it's just as structured as the 'classic'.

    Earlier this year, I did a book with a 'classic' composition in a western style because my art team wanted to do what they precieved as a 'traditional' book. My team actually bailed on me in the end & friendships were ruined as a result...getting of subject here...BUT because of the writer's script, I allways felt that it would've been better using a modern composition due to the visual gaps in his writing. It's in my gallery in an album labled Oylmpian Demesne & it sucks. The publisher has shelfed it but I get a chance to redeem myself & I plan on using a modern composition (a more mangaka feel to it) when I do.

    Here's a page I did in what I'd consider a classic composition:


    ...and here's another in the same book I did in a modern composition:


    Like I said, my art team bailed on me & I had to get it done...so it's really awful. I hate it actually...

    Bottom line, I guess it depends on the work you're doing and what type of feeling you're going for. I've seen western comics & manga both done with either composition & they seem to work for those books. But, as I said above, I'm partial to the modern compostion these days.

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