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Thread: Race Education and Why it Fails

  1. #41
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    *says his grandparents were immigrants and backs out of this argument, as he falls into the more ... sensible "IM PART XYZ" crowd*
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  2. #42
    Fenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    I want to stand the point of Ethnics. I hate people calling them self "I'm half Irish and half Scandinavian" and they live like a normal USA family (not even with traditions of those places). WTF? That is even more retarded that racism, its like you are "creating" a race to differentiate you from the rest.
    Thanks for hating me Clock.

    Not practicing traditional customs doesn't change the fact that your history and lineage is a part of who you are. Guess what? People in Japan today don't practice the exact same traditions as 5 generations ago either, even if they never left their country. There are more similarities than immigrants, sure, but customs change, so they aren't a valid indicator.

    It's a reference to anscestry and origins, and it's most relevant in America where almost everyone traces their family history back to another country.

  3. #43
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    Interesting (albeit Wikipedia) article on the subject.
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  4. #44
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    Thanks for hating me Clock.

    Not practicing traditional customs doesn't change the fact that your history and lineage is a part of who you are. Guess what? People in Japan today don't practice the exact same traditions as 5 generations ago either, even if they never left their country. There are more similarities than immigrants, sure, but customs change, so they aren't a valid indicator.

    It's a reference to anscestry and origins, and it's most relevant in America where almost everyone traces their family history back to another country.

    You know that it's a big difference to be born in a place and change according to the cultural developments of that place. Than being descendant of X culture and live in another culture?

    Let's say you are Irish descendant, and you have lived 3 generations on USA. If you don't follow any cultural tradition related to your ancestors and you live as a normal USA kid, then your past doesn't mean anything beyond to where your family come from. You can't claim "I'm from X ethnic" when you barely practice anything related to them. And saying it as something genetic or about "blood", like "I have irish blood" it makes it even more retarded, because you are mixing ethnics with races.

  5. #45
    Fenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    You know that it's a big difference to be born in a place and change according to the cultural developments of that place. Than being descendant of X culture and live in another culture?

    Let's say you are Irish descendant, and you have lived 3 generations on USA. If you don't follow any cultural tradition related to your ancestors and you live as a normal USA kid, then your past doesn't mean anything beyond to where your family come from. You can't claim "I'm from X ethnic" when you barely practice anything related to them. And saying it as something genetic or about "blood", like "I have irish blood" it makes it even more retarded, because you are mixing ethnics with races.
    I see nothing wrong with saying "I'm X ethnic" because it is generally understood that it is synonymous to "I descend from X ancestors." I also can't fathom why it bothers you so much. If I can't say "I'm Irish" should I simply say "I'm American?" Because their is no true "American" culture. American culture is simply a blend of many, may different cultures.

    I suppose you prefer I just label myself "generic white dude."

  6. #46
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Well already you saying "American" and not "USA" its part of a culture build by the people of USA. And for my are not synonymous, because a Ethnic group is defined through their culture, and not they genetic or blood. If the you don't follow the traditions of that culture, then you are as equally part of it as I am.

    Hell, if I could say I belong to a culture just for the heritage then I would belong to: Spanish, Irish, British, Portugal, German and Native. As I don't follow any tradition of those, I can't say I belong to them. And if you see this through all Latin American, you are going to find that more than 80% of the people have this kind of mixes and more. Still people don't call themself "I'm spanish, irish, british, portugal, german, native descendant", because it would be a lie.

  7. #47
    Yeah, I agree with Clockhand here. The sheer number of Americans I have met the world over who when I ask them where they are from they tell me their from Europe. Seriously.

    I remember when I travelled through Laos and I met many random people along the way, one of whom was an American who told me one time that everyone in his family was '100% Dutch', I remember there was a Dutch girl with us who started speaking to him in Dutch, and he said 'No I don't speak Dutch. I've never actually been there.' So when asked by what possible metric this guy could call himself 100% Dutch, he said 'Thats my family history, what else am I suppose to call myself?' ...How about American?

    I don't think it has anything to do with culteral traditions, I just find it quite sad that most Americans feel the need to define themselves, or differentiate themselves from other Americans, by latching onto the ethnic lineage of their long dead relatives. I don't care if your great-great-great-great grandfather came from Northern Ireland, that doesn't mean we are the 'same people', we have nothing in common. Just call yourself American, jeez.

  8. #48
    Lucky Member Blue_Dragon's Avatar
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    Based on your definitions alone, I shouldn't call my boyfriend Guatemalan.
    He was born in Guatemala. He looks Guatemalan (mostly Quiche/K'iche, but he also looks as though there's some European/Spanish in him.) But he was adopted at the age of two and has the culture of a Midwestern Caucasian family. He doesn't partake in any Guatemalan Traditions, yet he was born there. So by you and Clock's definition (not celebrating or being a part of the nation's tradition,) he has no claim to being Guatemalan. Or if he has a claim, it's just cause he was born there, but he really isn't part of the culture, in-spite of his trying to learn (which is what, in my experience, many people interested in their own background do.)

    This is exceedingly insensitive, especially since he feels he doesn't always fits in with his adopted family. Further, even if he was third generation, for him to be proud, and interested in his background, isn't "stupid" or "ratarded." Yeah, the US "Dutch" guy was irritating, because he was being misleading. When asked where you come from on a foreign trip, you say where you're from (personally, you should probably say country and state,) but when asked your ethnic background, to simply say US citizen is wrong, because it was the immigrants who helped to shape and form the country as it is, which is still happening today. I wouldn't take offense if a European was able to trace back what tribe they came from (Goths, Celts, etc,) so I believe it's equally ignorant to judge someone for being interested in their own history and background. To put in the words of Bob Marley: "If you know your history, then you would know where you're coming from. They you wouldn't have to ask me, who the hell do I think I am?"

    One's ethnic background is as much a part of them at times as their nationality. It may not be a tradition they practice in their daily lives, but is something which contributed to their existence and where they are in life today. To belittle and insult a person for having an interest in that history and claiming it as their historic/genetic past is very naive and narrow minded in my opinion.


    Edit:

    Also, just because someone lists their historic ethnicity, doesn't mean they are claiming they are still a part of that current culture. They're just tracking where their people came from originally. That alone evokes the immigrant narrative of different peoples and is often used as a way to try to connect with different nationalities by finding some common ground: no matter how far back that connection runs. As an example, I met two Irish couples at work, and having a Gaelic name, was able to speak with them and find common ground whereas otherwise, we were complete strangers. By creating this dialogue, there was a small thread of trust connecting us, and we were able to move on from there and discuss other topics. Without that initial connection, they may not have opened up to me. Does this work all the time? No, but certainly worked with them, and has worked for me in the past.

    This is just an example, and is my no means, something that would happen with everyone. But I used by ethnic history to help strike a conversation with them. And of course, like the Dutch girl, they asked if I'd been to Ireland. No, I hadn't, but I certainly would like to visit the lands of my background (as well as other places) which I expressed to them. And for their part, they appreciated that I showed an interest, since many US citizens are "America, America, America's the greatest!!!!!" and show no interest in the rest of the world.
    Last edited by Blue_Dragon; 11-10-2011 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Grammatical errors and one addition
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  9. #49
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_Dragon View Post
    Based on your definitions alone, I shouldn't call my boyfriend Guatemalan.
    He was born in Guatemala. He looks Guatemalan (mostly Quiche/K'iche, but he also looks as though there's some European/Spanish in him.) But he was adopted at the age of two and has the culture of a Midwestern Caucasian family. He doesn't partake in any Guatemalan Traditions, yet he was born there. So by you and Clock's definition (not celebrating or being a part of the nation's tradition,) he has no claim to being Guatemalan. Or if he has a claim, it's just cause he was born there, but he really isn't part of the culture, in-spite of his trying to learn (which is what, in my experience, many people interested in their own background do.)
    Nationality is different than Ethnic. If he born in there, he is Guatemalan by birth, but he doesn't share anything related to their culture, so he can't be identify as be part of them. He is by culture from USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_Dragon View Post
    This is exceedingly insensitive, especially since he feels he doesn't always fits in with his adopted family.
    Obviously that happens. That is the big reason why every adoption agency is so protective with adopting kids from different nations, its because of the "cultural" gap between those that the kids can feel alienated from their new home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_Dragon View Post
    Further, even if he was third generation, for him to be proud, and interested in his background, isn't "stupid" or "ratarded." Yeah, the US "Dutch" guy was irritating, because he was being misleading. When asked where you come from on a foreign trip, you say where you're from (personally, you should probably say country and state,) but when asked your ethnic background, to simply say US citizen is wrong, because it was the immigrants who helped to shape and form the country as it is, which is still happening today.
    Immigrants, like in all America (america the continent). And its wrong to call yourself something you are not. Ethnic is defined by languange, religion, culture and reality, if you don't share those with the people you are getting involve, then you don't belong. This is like calling myself Irish, and I can only say that I had a ancestor who was Irish (probably Immigrant), but who cares? I'm just a generic white kid.

    Also Immigrants were, natives become. Our ancestors were immigrants, we are not, we have developed a culture way different from theirs. This is why USA people call them self "americans".


    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_Dragon View Post
    I wouldn't take offense if a European was able to trace back what tribe they came from (Goths, Celts, etc,) so I believe it's equally ignorant to judge someone for being interested in their own history and background. To put in the words of Bob Marley: "If you know your history, then you would know where you're coming from. They you wouldn't have to ask me, who the hell do I think I am?"
    It's not my history, its the history of my ancestors, that is the difference. I'm not Irish, they were. I'm not german, they were. What if I track my ancestor and I found one of those were a tribe that was forgotten, could I call myself of that tribe and give it birth again? I'm not, I wasn't and I'm not going to be Irish, my ancestor was, I wasn't.

    And if people ask you were you come from, you just say your nation.


    Also, watch the new south park episode and you will understand my point.
    Last edited by ClockHand; 11-10-2011 at 03:53 PM.

  10. #50
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester_Of_Sorrow View Post
    Just call yourself American, jeez.
    This doesn't work. Only the indigenous can actually say this. He may have been an American, in that he was born in America, but ethnically speaking, he isn't. It was a stupid way to introduce himself, yes, but did he actually say he was from the Netherlands, or just that he was 100% Dutch? If it's the latter, your argument is sort of ridiculous.

    Also, where do you draw the line? My dad's parents were immigrants from Italy, my dad is 100% Italian (and he has a sibling who was born in Italy), and I am 50% Italian (ethnically speaking). My dad's side of the family still is very Italian, they make traditional food, and many of us still have Italian names (I have a cousin named Mario Luigi, I shit you not). Not to mention the fact I still have many "aunts" and "uncles" (actual relationship being closer to great aunts or whatever) who are immigrants themselves that I see regularly. So, yeah, it may be silly to say I'm Italian, but I see no problem with saying I'm Italian-American. If I marry someone who is mostly Italian, and we keep doing Italian things (I'm naming my son Giovanni dammit), is he an Italian-American? What about his kid?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    He is by culture from USA.
    You know what's interesting, that we have no word for this. Culturally works I suppose, but it doesn't feel right.

    And your ancestors history is your own.
    Last edited by Bacon_Barbarian; 11-10-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestial-Fox View Post
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