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Thread: Storytelling in Games Thread

  1. #101
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    The one boss I had trouble with was Ornstein and Smough because I didn't realize killing smough first was tougher than vice versa. Like...he just looks so STRONG so I figured I'd save Ornstein for last!

  2. #102
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    My worst was the Stray Demon. It was so fucking annoying -.-

  3. #103
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    I don't have online mode, so I can't read hints from other players. And I don't think that asking for tips is bad. And you could lie to my (as you tried) or trick my, even if I ask you something I will not have the complete information.
    Asking for tips isn't bad but don't say the game was easy when you had all these outside advantages. iirc you said you knew how to beat the bosses before you even played the game.

  4. #104
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Jubeh, you have Ornstein armor right? Does it make you look fat or do you think a slim wanderer like myself would look good in it?

  5. #105
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Naw its proportionate to your body, despite ornstein being giant. I've got his spear as well but dont have the dex to wield it properly.

  6. #106
    Devilish Member Inksprout's Avatar
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    Clockhand I understand perfectly what a difficulty curve is and how it is supposed to work, but I am telling you that there is no way for all players to coexist in one difficulty level without ruining the game for some games. You say that you only found Gears of War 3 satisfying to play on the hardest level. I haven't played it yet, but I am willing to bet that I would never be able to play it on insane mode, it would be almost literally impossible and I would almost certainly give up before progressing (and I am talking about hours of failure here).
    You seem to think that 'how a game is meant to be played' is tied some how to how hard the game is which is just totally ridiculous. Game designers are designing an experience. Sometimes the difficulty might be tied into the experience, like in 'The Binding of Isaac' and similar games. Other times the designers want the player to feel like they are accomplished and capable of being a hero. So it seems obvious that if you expect players like me to play at the same difficulty level as players like you I'm going to have the experience ruined for me.
    When I say some games are supposed to be actions games I do not mean they are supposed to be easy and 'fast food games'. I am talking about the TONE of a game. How satisfying is a war game when you have to go through the one gun fight 50 times because you suck at playing so much? Its not fun at all because it ruins the TONE of the game. Equally if you are playing a super hero game such as batman you want to be able to succeed within a reasonable amount of attempts because, hey, you're a super hero not just yourself inside the game. Yeah, I get the point of difficulty curves but forcing someone like me to try to play through a difficulty curve that someone as good as you would find satisfying would just ruin some games for me. Its not fair to just say 'You should be able to learn the skills' because no one wants to becoming good at a game if it sacrifices the tone and therefore the main point of the game. Designers certainly don't want to do this to players, which is why difficulty settings are so widely used and accepted. Through extensive testing developers have found it necessary and effective for both better and worse players. To be honest most developers don't care if their fans can play on the hardest difficulty or not because designers want to create an experience for players, not a training machine.

  7. #107
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Yeah who gets mad about difficulty levels.

    "Well if I can do it everyone else can!"

    No not really.

  8. #108
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Clockhand I understand perfectly what a difficulty curve is and how it is supposed to work, but I am telling you that there is no way for all players to coexist in one difficulty level without ruining the game for some games.
    We all have different abilities, but is when we overcome our problems and get better abilities, when the game make us better. A game without difficulty setting that goes as "this is how the game should be played" kills the idea of "casual" and "hardcore" gamers and also force you to over come your problems and the ones on the game; while when you have difficulty setting, you don't have your problems and you can shut down the problems the game impose you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    You say that you only found Gears of War 3 satisfying to play on the hardest level. I haven't played it yet, but I am willing to bet that I would never be able to play it on insane mode, it would be almost literally impossible and I would almost certainly give up before progressing (and I am talking about hours of failure here).
    The game force you to first play it in Hard, so you are forced to learn everything on the game before playing in Insane. Also, Insane is horrible, you die a lot, A LOT. But it's the only moment when I feel a challenge and I feel great killing enemies and surviving (because, to be honest, I didn't any other element on the game). A friend played the game in Medium difficulty and he hasn't finished yet, not because he can't, but because he gets bored (he is the kind of person who just want the ride, but doesn't want to work in it, and the game, as has a horrible story and other things, it made to only be enjoyed while you A) play with friends in Co-op or/and B) play in the hardest difficulty setting).

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    You seem to think that 'how a game is meant to be played' is tied some how to how hard the game is which is just totally ridiculous.
    Why is ridiculous? Do you think Megaman X would have provided the same experience if you could choose the difficulty? Or Donkey Kong? Or GTA IV? Do you believe that changing the difficulty in a game doesn't affect at all in the "how do you play it"? Or even some upgrades, like the anti bullet upgrade in Batman, don't you think those elements change the experience in the game, ergo the how the game should be played? I don't know, it doesn't look ridiculous to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Game designers are designing an experience.
    Mind blowing, we agree in something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Sometimes the difficulty might be tied into the experience, like in 'The Binding of Isaac' and similar games.
    Sometimes? Even in easy games like Kirby's Epic Yarn the difficulty is tied to the experience. As you point in previews posts games are tied by a group of elements (art, story, etc), one of those elements is obviously the difficulty. So, if you are saying that the experience can't necessarily be tied to the difficulty, is kinda going against at your first statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Other times the designers want the player to feel like they are accomplished and capable of being a hero.
    Other times? You are always a hero in a video game, or a anti hero. Making you feel like one is simple playing the game. If you mean, saying like a super hero, better than the other npc's and enemies, then I will ask, where is the joy in playing that? It's like reading a comic/manga were the main character is already over powerful, so where is the joy in that? How do you want the player to grow, if the character doesn't need to grow? or if the character grows and not the player? Again, it goes to my statement that video games should make you better, and through that, you can feel like a hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    So it seems obvious that if you expect players like me to play at the same difficulty level as players like you I'm going to have the experience ruined for me.
    This is the deal, you want a easy game, a ride, a roller coaster ride where you don't need to do anything in the whole game (that is what seems by your statements). If you play a game like that, you go practically against the concept of interaction, because a game is interactive only through your decisions, which you need to think and act. If a game doesn't ask you to think, you don't interact. Example: If a game tells you press B to save your ass, you are not interacting (you as yourself, a human being), but if a game put you in a complex situation where you need to save your ass through a puzzle or trying to find a escape rout, you are interacting, you are thinking, you as a person, not as someone that the games tells what to do. And it feels way more super hero-like fucking god like, when you though about it and you did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    When I say some games are supposed to be actions games I do not mean they are supposed to be easy and 'fast food games'. I am talking about the TONE of a game. How satisfying is a war game when you have to go through the one gun fight 50 times because you suck at playing so much? Its not fun at all because it ruins the TONE of the game.
    How satisfying is a war game when you need to press B quickly to success in a cinematic to save your ass? How satisfying was Kirby's Epic Yarn? How satisfying is God of War? Yeah it might be awesome for rubbing your ego and being like a kid exited by blood and explosions, but that TONE, is for my what more than 60% of the mangas out there are, just the same shit over and over again. And this is the hilarious part, because God of War sells as a mature game, but the game mechanic its made more for a kid. Then, doesn't the TONE be tied to the market target?

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Equally if you are playing a super hero game such as batman you want to be able to succeed within a reasonable amount of attempts because, hey, you're a super hero not just yourself inside the game.
    Actually the complete opposite. If I'm Batman, I believe I will fail more than anyone in this world. Dude trying to be Batman is fucking HARD, but is the game making you something that Batman is not just so you can go through the game easier, is what makes it's retarded.

    Maybe a Superman game, and even that game have to provide challenges to the player, because if is not, then you are going to get bored to dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Yeah, I get the point of difficulty curves but forcing someone like me to try to play through a difficulty curve that someone as good as you would find satisfying would just ruin some games for me.
    Dude, the first fps I played in console was Halo 3, and I SUCKED!!! I couldn't do anything. And you know what I did, I played it in the hardest difficulty I could, because I knew, even if I die countless of time, I would get better at the end. Yeah it's frustrating, it's hard, but at the end is beatable.

    The first time I played drums on Rock Band, I SUCKED!!! I was horroble, I didn't understood anything and even in the easiest setting I couldn't handle it. You know what I did? I ask people for help, some friend taught me about drumming beats and exerciser, and in less than a week I was on the hardest setting on Rock Band (obviously in here I believe difficulty setting is great, because is the only way to make a curve... but actually, now with Rock Smith, they made a better way to do this curve).

    I'm not saying that video games should be impossible to be played, I'm saying that video games should have a nice curve (like a woman, I want one that look nice, with good curves, not a flat chested or a cannon ball).

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    Its not fair to just say 'You should be able to learn the skills' because no one wants to becoming good at a game if it sacrifices the tone and therefore the main point of the game.
    Neither they are going to play a roller coaster game. People want Challenges, some people like small challenges, others big challenges, but at the end even the biggest challenge is smaller if you get the ability to over come it, and that is my point, video games shouldn't offer you a possibility to play it easier because it does kill the experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inksprout View Post
    To be honest most developers don't care if their fans can play on the hardest difficulty or not because designers want to create an experience for players, not a training machine.
    As I see it, most developers don't even care about their fans, they care firstly that the game sells. The experience is tied with the difficulty, and it also is with the story, art, music, narration, cinematic (or not, if there is not), characters, dialogues, etc. There are a lot of things that makes the experience great, sadly as I say this before, they don't care to much about many of these, stories are let at a side, characters are not always well refined, and the narration, some times I feel like it was made by a 8 years old kid (some times I feel like everything goes fast, like a -5 second sequences, and then a long scene with though and sadness and other emotional things, I'm completely disconnected, because they didn't understood how to tell a story through the tempo, the mood and the continuity of the events).

    As I see it, today games are like what the first nes games were, but with better graphic and new camera views. There is still a lot to work on those, specially in how a game should be narrated. And even the difficulty setting is gonna change by a new and better way to provide experience and challenge to the players. As I see it, there are a lot of reasons to find a better way to present challenges to the player (maybe in the future games are gonna by like Rock Smith, the better you are going, the harder the game will get, and the worst you are going, the easiest is gonna get, who knows?) because at the end, difficulty setting has problems, and I agree that a just giving one difficulty to the player also has its problems (in my point, less than difficulty setting), and that's why for my, video games have a lot to grow up.

  9. #109
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    We all have different abilities, but is when we overcome our problems and get better abilities, when the game make us better. A game without difficulty setting that goes as "this is how the game should be played" kills the idea of "casual" and "hardcore" gamers and also force you to over come your problems and the ones on the game; while when you have difficulty setting, you don't have your problems and you can shut down the problems the game impose you.
    This is romantic but also pretty childish. Some people just aren't good at certain things and never will be. If you had ever had to demo a kinect for an 80 year old man you'd see things from my point of view.

    People still buy strategy guides. They do, I see it every day. But I don't slap it out of their hands and say LEARN THAT SHIT PROPER because if that's how they want to play, how could you possibly be upset about that.

    You don't need to get rid of the casual/hardcore dichotomy. That can only be done by shutting the fuck up about it, and frankly that will never happen. There is hardcore/casual from everywhere to baseball fans to moviegoers.

    Really the number one thing here is that most people dont give a shit about being good at games. Most of the people that do tend to be douches, in my experience. Like even just saying that sounds douchey. Hey Im good at games. Ughhh. So if people exist that want to buy relaxing rollercoaster ride games, who really cares? Aside from you I mean.

    Gears of war 3.
    You're saying that insane should be the default difficulty because the game is so incredibly shitty the only thrill you get is from surviving setpiece firefights? Sounds like a bad game bro. The default ai being omnipotent wouldn't have saved it from being bad.

    Why is ridiculous? Do you think Megaman X would have provided the same experience if you could choose the difficulty? Or Donkey Kong? Or GTA IV? Do you believe that changing the difficulty in a game doesn't affect at all in the "how do you play it"? Or even some upgrades, like the anti bullet upgrade in Batman, don't you think those elements change the experience in the game, ergo the how the game should be played? I don't know, it doesn't look ridiculous to me.
    The same experience. Ha tricky wording. Who knows, difficulty levels could have added a better experience. Same being better is an american quality, clock, didn't expect that from you.

    You should absolutely give options to the player, so that they can enjoy the game how they want to.

    where is the joy in playing that?
    I hate when people ask, "Where's the fun in that?" For the record, it makes you sound like a twat.

    So you just hit this ball and run around these bases? Where's the fun in that.

    Anyway.

    The fun is in being the uber powerful guy, obviously. If I were playing a game where I drove around in a tank but I went down in just a couple 9mm shells I'd call bullshit.

    As for comparing it to comics, it doesn't work...clearly. Every play a god game? You literally are god. Sounds awful from a narrative standpoint but its super fun.

    And once again, who cares about being good at video games.

    This is the deal, you want a easy game, a ride, a roller coaster ride where you don't need to do anything in the whole game (that is what seems by your statements). If you play a game like that, you go practically against the concept of interaction, because a game is interactive only through your decisions, which you need to think and act.
    You're just wrong here. You realize that any input you have in a game is a decision, so the simple choice at the beginning of mario to walk left or right is a decision on its own. As long as game has even that, you are not betraying the concept of interaction.

    Yeah quick time events are dumb, since there's no decision there aside to just PRESS THE BUTTON THIS AINT A CUTSCENE but those'll die soon enough.

    How satisfying is a war game when you need to press B quickly to success in a cinematic to save your ass? How satisfying was Kirby's Epic Yarn? How satisfying is God of War?
    I'll get back to you when I have a machine that measures satisfaction.

    Actually the complete opposite. If I'm Batman, I believe I will fail more than anyone in this world. Dude trying to be Batman is fucking HARD, but is the game making you something that Batman is not just so you can go through the game easier, is what makes it's retarded.

    Maybe a Superman game, and even that game have to provide challenges to the player, because if is not, then you are going to get bored to dead.
    Eh batman is much more op than superman. You should know this. If they wanted the game to accurately represent batman, it would only have two buttons. Prepare and win.

    Difficulty curve
    Obviously games should have difficulty curves. Thats game design 101. Difficulty levels just squish the parabola a little bit.

    Also you acknowledge that difficulty levels work in rock band but you refuse to accept them in other games? Eh? EH? It's the same shit! If you can't handle a game on normal, play on easy.

    video games shouldn't offer you a possibility to play it easier because it does kill the experience.
    No it doesnt and none of your arguments have convinced me even a little bit.

    Everything else.
    You know arcade games were super hard because they wanted you to pump quarters in the machine.

    You know nes games were hard because they didn't want people to rent games. They were hard so you couldn't beat it in 5 days and would feel compelled to buy them.

    It seems crazy now that to get your money games are easier, but difficulty levels mean it works out for everyone.

    We're at a level now where we can create different experiences for different kinds of players. If it rubs you the wrong way that old people are able to play games now, consider that one day you'll be senile and shitting yourself and wishing that games had easy modes.

  10. #110
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    There are some games that have a dynamic difficulty level, meaning it gets harder if you do well and easier if you're not doing so well. Honestly, I think this might be the solution to everything, though of course it should always remain an option.

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