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Thread: Storytelling in Games Thread

  1. #91
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    I have been a new player and every time I pick a game I'm a new player. Obviously I have played a lot, so getting familiar with the controls is not a issue for me, while for other is, but again, the game should make you better.

    I think you haven't been reading me well, or I haven't wrote it properly, but I talk about a learning curve, that game needs to teach you and you start as a n00b and so on. And you tell me that not everyone are going to learn? Or not everyone has the same skills? Dude, I'm talking to make you better, obviously you start as someone who doesn't know how to play (DUH) and the game needs to teach you everything, but there is a way to teach you, one is telling you what to do, and the other is showing you what to do.

    Again, Dark Souls is not a hard game, its sells as a one. I never got hooked to Halo campaign principally because I never understood what going on (no Theming, or motor that drives me to the story) and I felt that I never had the chance to think what I was doing (it was more like, shoot the first thing that appear), of course I like the multiplayer, and I think that is the only thing that game shines. But ok, you want a quick action game, you want fast food game, you want a mcdonald in video game, don't you? What is the point of a game that doesn't challenge to become better? If you are not going to get in the game to interact with the challenges and become better, then go and watch a movie, finally Uncharted and God of War are that, just movies that tells you "hit this button over and over again".

    And there are ways to implement games with a nice curve of learning vs challenge. Megaman X did it great with the tutorial stage, and Spawn snes game did it wrong in the whole game. Obviously you need to introduce players to your game, and go step by step be making them betters, and that is my whole point, and why I hate difficult setting so much, is because A) it create this stupid division between casual gamer and hardcore, B) it create conflict in how the game should be played, C) lazy people are going to finish it in easy and then retail the game, D) You will not become better, yes, maybe better in easy difficulty, but you will not have explored all the ability the game require in its whole form (again, how the game should be played? if it should be played in easy, the skills I get there are enough and I will not need anything else).

    Difficult settings is something to change, I hate a game to ask me in what difficulty I want to play, this is like going to a fancy restaurant and the chef ask me with how do I want me food, wtf? I want my food as how is supposed to be, and I want me games as are supposed to be.

    A example of tutorials made wrong, is Sonic Generation, the game constantly tells you who are enemies, what enemies do, if you well from there what happens, and so on. Why would you spoil all that information to a player? we are not retarded, and if we lose was our mistake, so why the game is preventing us from making mistakes?

    Games are to make us better, and difficulty setting is a backward step.

  2. #92
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    On RPGS and skill --

    Here are some problems with typical turn based rpg combat and how I propose "skill" (Im so tired of hearing that work in the context of games) could be thoughtfully injected into them.

    1. Frequency
    Solution: Well this has nothing to do with skill but has everything to do with why people consider turn based combat tedious. If you had to do anything as frequently as you had to fight random battles in some games you'd go nuts.

    2. Lack of meaningful decisions (Its almost like games are based on these, pshhh)
    Solution: Remove status spells if they're not gonna work on bosses. What's the fucking point. You don't want to waste mp on average enemies (which is a problem, because if the fight is meaningless why does it exist?), so every boss fight is spam the strongest shit and heal every so often. I hate to use the word gimmick, but every boss needs something that makes them different from the other guy. If boss b is just boss a with a different sprite, you've failed on that level.

    If there is an option to run away, always allow it. Inflict a penalty, maybe, but dont let the player fail and get pounded on for a free turn. All this does is trivialize a decision so that the player won't ever want to use it. The sense of risk is skewed in these games. Why is running away considered harder than running up to a dude and trying to kill him through his plate armor while he is shoving a spear towards your ass.

    Maybe take inspiration from the roots of rpgs and add more interactivity with the environment. In dnd swinging from a chandelier to kick somebody is every day shit. Final Fantasy X is my ideal rpg because of a number of things. 1. Every member of your party can be used and has a role to fulfill (except that loser kimhari) so nobody gets stuck in the backseat. 2. You always know when the boss's turn is coming so you can react accordingly which is just fucking smart design. How many times have you used a heal spell on somebody and then the boss kill them so now you're healing. yourself. 3. Triggers were nifty. A step in the right direction if you ask me.

    3. Lack of strategy
    Solution: Like cype mentioned earlier, some way to learn about enemies. It can be at the start of the fight, or before. The fact is if you go into a random battle blind (which could happen, but shouldn't be the norm), you should have a chance to prepare for it. This sounds like it would make things easy, but you balance it out with hard decisions. As a cheap example, imagine a game where you were going to this place and you knew a lot of enemies were weak against fire. You could bring a bunch of squishy mages to shoot fireballs, but the enemies also hit hard and one shot those dudes. You have to build a composition that can stand up to this.

    This allows you to craft more difficult, meaningful fights instead of wondering if the encounter is too hard or easy for the players cookie cutter party. It would promote adapting to different areas, and learning about your surroundings before venturing out. The idea of a dungeon crawler entering a sacred tomb blind is just so ridiculous to me. Read a fucking book about monsters or ask the dude at the bar with one arm what the hell was in the place.

    4. Progression is broken
    Solution: I don't honestly think there is a single good solution to this, but we can try to come up with one.

    In odnd when your fighting-man levels up he basically gets more hp. That's because hp is an abstraction of your ability to dodge, block, and withstand blows that pierced your armor amongst other things. Getting "hit" could mean that your dude expended a lot of stamina to dodge the attack and didn't necessarily take an actual wound.

    The idea is that as your guy levels up he becomes better at all of these things. Your actual attributes didn't go up at all, and you COULD come across stronger weapons but the damage increase was in really small increments.

    So I would propose instead of stat increases, you gain an increase of options. You might say you already do get this since in console rpgs your character gains skills and things like that, but how many really matter? Its gonna be a more damaging spell, a new status ailment spell that doesn't work on anybody who you'd need to use on it, and stuff like that.

    But consider as a character got more perceptive they'd so fixtures in the environment they never noticed before. A lead pipe that was about to come loose which could be used as a weapon or something, or a banana peel you could step on by accident.

    Or if a character got stronger they could lift super heavy shit. Im not talking about weapons and stuff, but vending machines and cars crackdown style. If its a fantasy style game it could effect your ability to smash through somebody's guard or even just simply shove them to the ground. Options!

    As for HOW the characters actually progress...I've never found a solution I've liked. XP is really abstract, and the do it until you get better at it style is somewhat realistic, but it also promotes grinding and possibly playing your character in a dumb way just so you can max out swimming. In an ideal game that was paced incredibly well, I'd just have the character level up after overcoming an incredible challenge. It wouldn't have to be a boss, but maybe barely surviving a 1v5 fight near the brink of death. It would be hard to make it to where you couldn't game the system though, so Idk.

    I have more to say but my brain is failing

  3. #93
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Yeah I hate palette swaps for enemies it's like UGH. You couldn't even come up with a new enemy.

    And about the fire weakness thing. Though I do like the idea of elemental weaknesses, my main point was that a weakness shouldn't be something exploitable off the bat. With the access to things like GameFaqs, the fourth wall between how aware a character is of his surroundings is broken by how aware the player is. By that, I mean you could go into a boss fight knowing exactly what to do every turn to exploit his weaknesses just by looking them up. So the character gains some kind of incredible clairvoyance or insight based on the player's knowledge. But it should be that the character ALSO has to learn the same information through some in-game means. So that you couldn't just impart your knowledge as the player onto the character and suddenly he's prepared to fight some enemies he's never even seen before. The system shock 2 thing was the best example I could provide of this actually being done in a game. Like the Damage bonus came with the research so until your character themselves did the research and learned the enemy's weakness, they got no Damage bonus no matter how aware you, the player, was of said weakness.

  4. #94
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Yeah I hate palette swaps for enemies it's like UGH. You couldn't even come up with a new enemy.

    And about the fire weakness thing. Though I do like the idea of elemental weaknesses, my main point was that a weakness shouldn't be something exploitable off the bat. With the access to things like GameFaqs, the fourth wall between how aware a character is of his surroundings is broken by how aware the player is. By that, I mean you could go into a boss fight knowing exactly what to do every turn to exploit his weaknesses just by looking them up. So the character gains some kind of incredible clairvoyance or insight based on the player's knowledge. But it should be that the character ALSO has to learn the same information through some in-game means. So that you couldn't just impart your knowledge as the player onto the character and suddenly he's prepared to fight some enemies he's never even seen before. The system shock 2 thing was the best example I could provide of this actually being done in a game. Like the Damage bonus came with the research so until your character themselves did the research and learned the enemy's weakness, they got no Damage bonus no matter how aware you, the player, was of said weakness.
    Final Fantasy XIII

  5. #95
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    I dont like those weaknesses either it was just the easiest example

  6. #96
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    That's not really what I'm talking about @ Clockhand. If you go into an FFXII battle knowing an enemy's weakness because you, as the player, read it online somewhere, then there is no learning curve. Even if the characters haven't necessarily learned it yet, YOU have already learned it through some other means, so the knowledge is automatically imparted onto the character.

    What I mean is, in System Shock, you can't exploit weaknesses until your character himself knows them. So even if the player knows it, the character cannot get the damage bonus until you do the research IN the game. So you can't just like impart knowledge onto your character from the real world--your character literally has to learn it themselves through experience and research.

  7. #97
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    If you go into an FFXII battle knowing an enemy's weakness because you, as the player, read it online somewhere, then there is no learning curve. Even if the characters haven't necessarily learned it yet, YOU have already learned it t
    Ahaha I remember in the pa forums this dude went off at people calling Dark Souls easy since they had been discussing how to beat bosses and sharing videos and stuff like that. Of course it would be easy if you had people telling you what to do.

    Kind of like this guy

    Again, Dark Souls is not a hard game, its sells as a one.
    So all the times you bothered me on msn cuz you couldn't figure out a boss that was just acting right

  8. #98
    Sir-Mass-a-Lot Sylux's Avatar
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    That can actually work in some cases. For instance, .hack worked it out well, because it's a game within a game. The game inside the game doesn't have to make sense, and there's no defined story within that inception-game, and no need for that learning curve. You play the game as a game player, so it's totally natural.

  9. #99
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    yeah, true. But I don't think there are many RPGs like that. Actually .hack is the only one I can think of.

    WELCOME TO... THE WORLD

    Actually now that you mention it, I played the entire .hack Trilogy and I realized that The World makes like NO SENSE what so ever. It's basically a giant plot device...
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 11-06-2011 at 07:27 PM.

  10. #100
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jubeh View Post
    So all the times you bothered me on msn cuz you couldn't figure out a boss that was just acting right
    I don't have online mode, so I can't read hints from other players. And I don't think that asking for tips is bad. And you could lie to my (as you tried) or trick my, even if I ask you something I will not have the complete information.

    Also, FFXIII was bad because Libra told you enemies weakness and make all your characters to exploit that weakness.

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