Occupy Wall Street

[Delphinus]

Imma let you finish before I respond, but so far your arguments look a bit like a form letter used to respond to anything vaguely right-wing.

[Hamachi]

Proponents of communism/welfare states/equal opportunity: Please do reading on Mises, Lange, and the Economic Calculation Problem before this discussion is continued.

Also,

comparisons of economic systems over time have shown that capitalism is the most efficient in producing wealth and suffers the least leakages of cash

Basically this.

=__=

[Delphinus]

^ I accept the criticisms of central state control and, to reiterate, I agree with them. But at the same time, the trickle-down principle has been shown to be false, and a small degree of inefficiency is, I think you'd agree, worth it to make a system that doesn't amount to a brutal, plutocratic oligarchy. While economic growth is a good thing, by and large, it's pointless if that economic growth drops straight into the hands of a few elites while everyone else rots. Which would sum up what's happening at the moment rather well... There are also ways to circumvent the Economic Calculation Problem - Margaret Thatcher's marketisation of state education here in the UK is a great example (say what you like about the Iron Lady, she had good and bad ideas).

I'm arguing for a safety net for the poor, hopefully one that avoids the welfare trap (no idea how) and allows people to climb out of poverty. At the same time, I'm arguing for a system that enables the poor to get services every bit as efficient as those available to the rich. Perhaps these would be better overcome by providing things such as government-funded health insurance in all sectors (education etc.) rather than making things state-run, thus avoiding the Economic Calculation Problem in a similar way to Thatcher's solution to education, but we've seen how this sort of thing can fail with Medicare etc.

What I'm saying is that capitalism and meritocracy are not incompatible, it would just take some imagination and intelligence to integrate them in a favourable way.

EDIT: btw, I read up on Mises, Lange, and Economic Calculation Problem. I've heard the latter before.

[Son44]

It's pretty computationally biased to use 2007 as a reference point when referring to wealth considering that was the pits of the recession and unemployment rates were at their highest. What that analysis shows us is that the average American has gotten comparatively less rich, not that the rich have gotten richer. In other words, they're not getting ahead, //we're// falling behind. Given the context of the data, that is entirely understandable (not acceptable, by any means, but understandable). Furthermore, maintaining that the number of households is the same now as it was in 1983 is mathematically insane considering we've grown a literal 50% in population (233m vs. 307m). If we were to use more relevant data, I'm guessing the average citizen would come out a lot poorer and the 1% would come out not so much richer.

Also, do you see a trend here? Wealth disparity comes and goes with waves of mass recession. What does that tell us?

It tells us that it's entirely misguided to sit around being mad at rich people for being rich when our real problem is the recession. The average citizen isn't making money. Consider that we never whine about the 1% until two things happen: 1.) their taxes get cut or 2.) we get poorer. In other words, it only becomes an issue when we're comparatively poor and our tax burden is high. So instead of sitting around acting like rich people are suddenly stealing our money, let's instead find a way to lower our tax burden, raise theirs and get some jobs while we're at it. My one big complaint in all of this is that I have to compete with degree holders for starting positions at Macy's.

Chances are, after this recession passes (if it passes), nobody will give a shit about the 1%.

Ok, You've got a point. Still I support these guys because they atleast try to do something, eventhough their goal might be a little of. Still it is a problem when the gap increases to the degree it has and that most americans have gotten poorer while the rich dodge taxes.

Do you think the recession will pass? Personally I don't think so. You can't walk around and expect unlimited growth with limited resources. Ofcourse if we get into outerspace that problem will be solved, most likely, but will we get there in time and who is going to finance it? Damn, I'm starting to wonder.

Edit: Cype - Found a really interesting youtube video regarding income inequality and the effects
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7Lz...&feature=feedu

Oh and Dell - I changed my post a bit, due to some language misunderstanding because of the usage of socialism and social democracy in Norwegian language. Still I do consider myself a supporter of socialism, but under the current system I support Social Democracy as the best alternative.

[CypressDahlia]

I'll watch the video today.

On a side note: OWS has, indeed, become another police brutality fiasco. And such is the fate of all modern day protests. It won't be long before everyone, including the OWS themselves, forget whatever the hell they were protesting about and this just becomes another generic "the man is putting us down" movement. As of now, the only time this thing is receiving media attention of any kind is when the police are tear-gassing some people.

I keep watching Youtube videos of this stuff and I swear to god if I hear another generic hippie statement like "the little people no longer matter" in response to a much deeper question about the economic situation, I will stab someone today.

[Delphinus]

^ Ahahaha expecting protesters to be clever. I bet if most of them had the opportunity to be as rich as the top 1% they'd say 'fuck you all' and take it. Most of those hippies are only doing it to make themselves feel superior to other people.

[Son44]

^ Ahahaha expecting protesters to be clever. I bet if most of them had the opportunity to be as rich as the top 1% they'd say 'fuck you all' and take it. Most of those hippies are only doing it to make themselves feel superior to other people.

Complaining about the top 1% = feel superior to other people... What?

[CypressDahlia]

Meaning capitalism is a game of winners and losers. Losers wanna be winners.

[Son44]

Meaning capitalism is a game of winners and losers. Losers wanna be winners.

But he refers to "other people" and not top 1% or "would be feeling superior the 99% below"... Doesn't make any sense. Btw. did you watch the video?

[Delphinus]

But he refers to "other people" and not top 1%

Superior to sheeple, in the same way as conspiracy nuts or the more annoying type of vegetarian.