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Thread: Psalm 14: Who was Jesus' grandpa?

  1. #61
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    In the original text, God was not nice. It was some Pope or something who said he was, and he did so to get more power.

  2. #62
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    The Bible says God is good and loving. Especially in the NT.

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  3. #63
    999 Knights Member butternut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos
    There is very little reason to believe many of these people existed.
    Why not?Then how were they written about if they didn't exist? Even if they were the product of human imagination, then the person who imagined him could have followed the moral code and conduct he attributed to the imaginary person right?

    Awesome in the same way as Greek mythology's heros - evil jerks doing badass things.
    WHy is it so hard for you to believe that nice people existed in the past??

    The right path of owning slaves, treating women as property, murdering those who do not believe in the same invisible sky tyrant as you, and generally causing more misery in history than any other one group, yes.
    I did mention about evil people twisting the texts and ideas to gain power and control over the masses by doing these. The good things done by the person, the moral life, the leading people over the right path etc etc was done when the person actually existed-long before the tyrants even came into existence to ruin everything.

    All of these stories were written by extremely evil men.
    I agree. The stories as we read them now were written by evil men.

    Many believe in religion because they are evil and seek to find legitimization for their vile beliefs. The Bible provides this in spades.
    All the people who believe in religion are NOT evil. Some of them, yeah.Those who force it upon others, and those who use it as a means for their own selfish ends, for example. But not all. Most people believe in it because they derive comfort-or relief from the idea that there is something/somebody more powerful looking over them, looking after them.Kinda how a small child derives comfort from his mother when anything happens.

  4. #64
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    Why not?Then how were they written about if they didn't exist? Even if they were the product of human imagination, then the person who imagined him could have followed the moral code and conduct he attributed to the imaginary person right?
    The Hobbit tells the story of Aragorn, King of Men, among others. Is this account in and of itself enough to convince you that such a man existed? Why or why not?

    WHy is it so hard for you to believe that nice people existed in the past??
    Because I am unaware of any characters in the Bible who could be called nice. I cannot even think of any who are less than evil.

    I did mention about evil people twisting the texts and ideas to gain power and control over the masses by doing these. The good things done by the person, the moral life, the leading people over the right path etc etc was done when the person actually existed-long before the tyrants even came into existence to ruin everything.
    Why do you believe this? When the only account of a probably fictional character's life says they did something, what makes you think otherwise?

    I agree. The stories as we read them now were written by evil men.
    The stories as we read them now are more or less the stories as they were written. The changes to the stories have made the horrors within seem less awful, not more awful.

    All the people who believe in religion are NOT evil.
    If you honestly and sincerely embrace the teachings of Christianity - or any of the Judeo-Christian religions - you are evil. Period. Belief in Hell, if nothing else, is completely incompatible with being a moral person. A belief in the justness of torture is not acceptable for civilized Human beings - a belief in infinite torture is infinitely more unacceptable.

    Some of them, yeah.Those who force it upon others, and those who use it as a means for their own selfish ends, for example. But not all. Most people believe in it because they derive comfort-or relief from the idea that there is something/somebody more powerful looking over them, looking after them.Kinda how a small child derives comfort from his mother when anything happens.
    Yes. Except if a grown man continues to rely on his mother - or more apt for the analogy, a security blanket from his infancy - for guidance even into his adulthood we consider him to be aberrant and in need of mental help.

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  5. #65
    999 Knights Member butternut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos
    The Hobbit tells the story of Aragorn, King of Men, among others. Is this account in and of itself enough to convince you that such a man existed? Why or why not?
    It's different. Aragorn is a fictitious character. But all these stories and texts are written for people to teach them something, to make them follow certain guidelines. Even if the characters in the text don't exist, at least the author must have followed majority of what he's written right?

    Because I am unaware of any characters in the Bible who could be called nice. I cannot even think of any who are less than evil.
    See below.

    Why do you believe this? When the only account of a probably fictional character's life says they did something, what makes you think otherwise?
    Because I believe that that is not the only account of that character. History says that lots of texts have been re-written lots of times, and with the many editions that are there, you can't be sure what is true anymore. So if there was something to be written about the character, it must be something remarkable right?

    The changes to the stories have made the horrors within seem less awful, not more awful.
    We are talking about evil people who made use of those texts to gain control over people. Why would they make things seem easier if they wanted to scare away the people into submission?

    If you honestly and sincerely embrace the teachings of Christianity - or any of the Judeo-Christian religions - you are evil. Period. Belief in Hell, if nothing else, is completely incompatible with being a moral person. A belief in the justness of torture is not acceptable for civilized Human beings - a belief in infinite torture is infinitely more unacceptable.
    Hell and such sort of stuff was created to scare people. (again, for example:when u tell a child he's gonna get a beating for stealing something) Now we are capable of thinking and being rational. But in those days, the common man had to be led by more intelligent people and told how to lead his life, or else the whole social system would have crumbled. Believing in Hell doesn't mean it actually exists. Besides, now-a-days, it's just an expression for a place or experience that isn't too good.

    Yes. Except if a grown man continues to rely on his mother - or more apt for the analogy, a security blanket from his infancy - for guidance even into his adulthood we consider him to be aberrant and in need of mental help.
    Dude, you are exaggerating things! He depends on something doesn't imply he turns to that being for every single thing. Haven't you felt lost in life, or full of hopelessness or something similar?Sure friends and family help to cope, but sometimes some people find their strength on their own. For some people who do, they believe they get it from something more powerful(read:God). When people pray(not just Christianity, but all religions) it's similar to meditating. Most places of worship are quite and peaceful if you notice. It just gives hope and strength to continue and renew their efforts.

  6. #66
    999 Knights Member Regantor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    It's different. Aragorn is a fictitious character. But all these stories and texts are written for people to teach them something, to make them follow certain guidelines. Even if the characters in the text don't exist, at least the author must have followed majority of what he's written right? Because I believe that that is not the only account of that character. History says that lots of texts have been re-written lots of times, and with the many editions that are there, you can't be sure what is true anymore. So if there was something to be written about the character, it must be something remarkable right?
    Not if he had an agenda. I can't remember the exact name off by heart, but there was a middle eastern king who told a suspiciously similar story to the bible before it was even writen... Oh, except he was most of the main characters.

    It's much easier to rule people who you've brainwashed into being passive, after all. This is the biggest reason why I find religion dangerous personally; What kind of a society do you live in if you are only not raping and pilaging because a book told you not to?...

    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    We are talking about evil people who made use of those texts to gain control over people. Why would they make things seem easier if they wanted to scare away the people into submission?
    It's not "easier". Kodos is just saying that they tried to make the "good guys" more appealing to modern sensibilities. I.e; The fact that Jesus pretty much takes on the ethnicity of whatever country the church is in.

    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    Hell and such sort of stuff was created to scare people. (again, for example:when u tell a child he's gonna get a beating for stealing something) Now we are capable of thinking and being rational. But in those days, the common man had to be led by more intelligent people and told how to lead his life, or else the whole social system would have crumbled. Believing in Hell doesn't mean it actually exists. Besides, now-a-days, it's just an expression for a place or experience that isn't too good.
    Dude, you are exaggerating things! He depends on something doesn't imply he turns to that being for every single thing. Haven't you felt lost in life, or full of hopelessness or something similar?Sure friends and family help to cope, but sometimes some people find their strength on their own. For some people who do, they believe they get it from something more powerful(read:God). When people pray(not just Christianity, but all religions) it's similar to meditating. Most places of worship are quite and peaceful if you notice. It just gives hope and strength to continue and renew their efforts.
    Stuck these two qoutes togeather for a reason; Are you trying to say that people believe in god because they want to be scared? Wasn't that the entire point of turning to him in the first place?... Also, just because places of worship aren't bloodbaths doesn't make them peaceful. Any location that makes a distinction between "them" and "us" is just belitting and dehumanizing other people for no good reason.

    Think about all the millions of lives that we could either send to heaven with religion, or feed and bring back to health with science. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out which one is more moral to spend money on.
    Last edited by Regantor; 01-10-2011 at 10:41 AM.

  7. #67
    999 Knights Member butternut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regantor View Post
    Not if he had an agenda. I can't remember the exact name off by heart, but there was a middle eastern king who told a suspiciously similar story to the bible before it was even writen... Oh, except he was most of the main characters.
    Yeah. Honestly even I felt it was a weak argument.

    What kind of a society do you live in if you are only not raping and pilaging because a book told you not to?
    That is based on today's standards. But if you look overall, the common man of then had to have somebody controlling him.Man's mind was weak. It is more developed today, and will be even more developed after, say, another 500 years. The book is just a record of all the rules and guidelines.

    Are you trying to say that people believe in god because they want to be scared?
    Huh?No I'm not. How did you come to that conclusion? Didn't get you.

    Any location that makes a distinction between "them" and "us" is just belitting and dehumanizing other people for no good reason.
    Could you be more clear? I didn't get you - when u say "them" and "us", who are they?

  8. #68
    999 Knights Member Regantor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    That is based on today's standards. But if you look overall, the common man of then had to have somebody controlling him.Man's mind was weak. It is more developed today, and will be even more developed after, say, another 500 years. The book is just a record of all the rules and guidelines.
    lol, I'm English. 500 years ago our monarchy were the people doing the raping and pilaging, and they were supposed to be appointed by god too! But that's a really specific example, so yeah, I don't expect you to answer that. I'm just saying that the people in charge are very, very rarely the smartest or most noble.

    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    Huh?No I'm not. How did you come to that conclusion? Didn't get you.
    I know you wern't intentionally, but what I was trying to point out was the fact that you're saying people feel a need to be judged at times. While this is true, telling them that they might go to a boiling torture room for all eternity isn't exactly that combforting is it? Even if it's only supposed to be a story, hell is an integral part of the whole deal; Because otherwise Jesus didn't supposedly die for much.

    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    Could you be more clear? I didn't get you - when u say "them" and "us", who are they?
    Christians and non-christians in this case. Telling people to pity non-believers, -even if that entails saving them-, implies that they are somehow foolish and unable to save themselves. Even in the best case senario, it gives justification for people to stand on street corners telling me I'm going to hell if I don't do what they say.

    Now, I'm not saying that a great deal of christians would ever think of doing this, not by a long shot. It's just pretty hipocritical considering their own teachings, and a pretty clear example of power abuse, too. Could you imagine if they let people yell anti-smoking adverts at you like that?...

  9. #69
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saphira View Post
    It's different. Aragorn is a fictitious character.
    And so are most of the Biblical "heroes".

    But all these stories and texts are written for people to teach them something, to make them follow certain guidelines. Even if the characters in the text don't exist, at least the author must have followed majority of what he's written right?
    I write about a giant rape dragon, among other things. I've never raped anyone. I've never even sexually harassed people. It's entirely possible to write about things you neither like nor do.

    Because I believe that that is not the only account of that character. History says that lots of texts have been re-written lots of times, and with the many editions that are there, you can't be sure what is true anymore. So if there was something to be written about the character, it must be something remarkable right?
    If the only sources of information about the life of a supposed individual are a book which is blatantly inconsistent with itself and reality and clearly draws inspiration from the myths and tropes common at the time, and another series of books written later that are similar but different in generally minor ways, there is still no reason to assume any of them are true.

    We are talking about evil people who made use of those texts to gain control over people. Why would they make things seem easier if they wanted to scare away the people into submission?
    Because historically that is what they have done. The Church no longer openly declares that women are property or gays ought to be killed. Do you think the Church today has any less of a desire to rule over men?

    Hell and such sort of stuff was created to scare people. (again, for example:when u tell a child he's gonna get a beating for stealing something) Now we are capable of thinking and being rational. But in those days, the common man had to be led by more intelligent people and told how to lead his life, or else the whole social system would have crumbled.
    Sheep are stupid and must be driven. Goats are intelligent and need to be led. Humans are like the latter. Societies can, have, and do function without having the belief that there is a cosmic concentration camp waiting for you because you decided to masturbate.

    Believing in Hell doesn't mean it actually exists.
    Yes. But it does mean that you believe such a thing can be deserved and is good, hence you are evil.

    Besides, now-a-days, it's just an expression for a place or experience that isn't too good.
    Not really. Christianity makes no sense without Hell. Jesus Christ is a savior. A savior is one who saves. To be saved is to be saved from some thing or things. If there is no Hell then what, exactly, is Jesus saving us from?

    Dude, you are exaggerating things! He depends on something doesn't imply he turns to that being for every single thing. Haven't you felt lost in life, or full of hopelessness or something similar?Sure friends and family help to cope, but sometimes some people find their strength on their own. For some people who do, they believe they get it from something more powerful(read:God). When people pray(not just Christianity, but all religions) it's similar to meditating. Most places of worship are quite and peaceful if you notice. It just gives hope and strength to continue and renew their efforts.
    I've been sad and depressed many times, sure. Once or twice almost suicidally so. And then I realise that I live in a wonderful world full of amazing things both natural and man-made. That the universe is vast and wonderful and I happen to be a tiny aggregate of matter that, by pure chance, is able to perceive this and be awed by it. That I have formed meaningful bonds with other people who I love and who love me. That however awful the world is today it is still better than it was 500, or even 50, years ago.
    I don't believe in God. I believe in people; in their kindness and their compassion, their strengths and their drive. I believe in science; in the belief that man can conquer the world through reason and that we need not shiver alone in the cold cursing the dark. I believe in technology, in the promise of a better future for myself and those who will follow it offers us all and the lessons of responsibility it forces on us. I believe in laughter. I believe in lots of things.
    The world is a vast and wonderful place and there is never any reason or need to turn to fantasy for comfort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regantor View Post
    Not if he had an agenda. I can't remember the exact name off by heart, but there was a middle eastern king who told a suspiciously similar story to the bible before it was even writen... Oh, except he was most of the main characters.
    Gilgamesh? Although to be fair, lots of people did that story above. But I think you're thinking of Gilgamesh? I'm pretty sure he was a semi-historical king. And while he wasn't an actual character in the story, Augustus Caeser did more or less the same thing with the Aeneid (which, unlike the Bible, is actually good reading. I reccomend it. I have the David West translation and it's boss).

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  10. #70
    Fenn
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    Are you claiming, Kodos, that there is not a single sentence in the Bible that, taken out of context, is good? A truly evil book would spawn only true evil. Yet how many religious orders have charity organizations? How can goodness be inspired, even if through incorrect or ignorant translation, by a book meant only for evil.

    Why would the writers, completely evil beings, include lines such as "love your neighbor as yourself" or "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife?" if they were only trying to spawn evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    The world is a vast and wonderful place and there is never any reason or need to turn to fantasy for comfort.
    Although it shouldn't be a necesity, fantasy/fictional works can be a healthy, temporary escape for people, and sometimes fiction can help us look at the real world in a different light. I understand your point though; people shouldn't depend on it.
    Last edited by Fenn; 01-10-2011 at 08:23 PM.

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