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Thread: Psalm 14: Who was Jesus' grandpa?

  1. #581
    Lucky Member corastaur's Avatar
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    Yeah I know, it's true :/ a lot of people think having doubts and questioning things is a terrible thing and dangerous or something. I think it's a good thing. Also:

    God wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, he wanted Jesus to die, and he wants to judge people by their sins
    Another view of this kind of thing is chalking it up to "free choice." God didn't want us to be mindless robots incapable of making the choice to believe in him so he gave us free will (knowing that it would lead to people making bad and harmful decisions). Adam and Eve had free will and they chose to eat from the tree of life, because he knew that would happen (which sucks) he had a back-up plan in Jesus dying (which if you remember he didn't really want to do. He supposedly spent the night before praying about it trying to think of a way out of it, but eventually he chose to do let them kill him anyway.) I dont know if he wants to judge people by their sins - condemning them - but who knows what actually happens when we die.

  2. #582
    Fenn
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    I win because I posted a link with more arguments than you can ever hope to answer in this thread, even if you've answered some beforehand and you'd be right about the others.

    But on a more serious note, why would an omnipotent be unable to defy logic? Omnipotent = can do ANYTHING.

  3. #583
    Lucky Member corastaur's Avatar
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    hahaha you have a good point hmmmm I think it makes people uncomfortable... It's pretty hard to wrap our brains around the idea of an all-powerful being who somehow is exempt from any scientific laws or logic. It's deus ex machina. It's the default answer that everyone hates because how can you argue against something like that? Rather, for most, it's how can you accept an answer like that? You know? In short, yes an omnipotent being would be able to defy logic... it's just sort of a cheap answer

  4. #584
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    I think it would be pointless to design a hyper-sentient super intelligent species if you're going to pull the strings on everything. Furthermore, it's pointless to create an entire planet if all of it's functions aren't allowed to come through. If anything, humans and this planet are just a labor of love, like children, which were refined to a certain point but eventually allowed to run their own course. You also have to consider how much "God" can interfere with things. Like a government, there is only so much one can do before it becomes controlling. Suppose "God" rights every wrong in an instant. What is the point of living? Human existence revolves around conflict. We exist to solve problems. And when there are no problems, we create our own problems by desiring a higher standard of comfort. If something is solving all of our problems just because it can, our species, or any, loses its purpose. Furthermore, if "God" solves all of our problems, what is to stop him from forcing us to fear and/or worship him?

    I notice that in these types of arguments, people consider all of the GOOD "God" isn't doing by refusing to intervene in our lives. They tend to overlook all of the BAD he would be doing were he to intervene. As a deity who supposedly hates gays and other religions, why are gays and non-Christians alive? Why aren't adulterers and thieves immediately zapped by lightning bolts and/or poofed out of existence? If anything, "God" is a ridiculously negligent being, but in more than just cruel ways. It's not hard to believe that, if there were a "God", he would just be watching over us like a scientist over a culture of bacteria.

    Likewise, we as people do not interfere in nature. If anything, we're fascinated by it. We do not stop every cat that intends to kill a mouse. We stand by and watch and acknowledge it as "the way things work". Despite practically being the all-knowing, all-powerful species of this world, we rarely intervene in the lives of other species. If a lion cannibalizes on his own cubs, or a forest fire wipes out an entire ecosystem, we may consider it disastrous but we also consider it "natural". And, thus, we consider it as something that's ordained by natural laws--something that's "supposed" to happen--despite having the power to prevent it. What's to say God is so different in his manner?


    Just food for thought.
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 10-15-2011 at 04:08 PM.

  5. #585
    Lucky Member corastaur's Avatar
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    *applauds*

  6. #586
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong. I'm in no way religious. I subscribe solely to the philosophical aspects of Mahayana Buddhism, so I don't believe in gods, nevertheless "God". But there's a lot of discussion being overlooked here in lieu of feverishly typing out God jokes and logic punchlines.

  7. #587
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    I win because I posted a link with more arguments than you can ever hope to answer in this thread, even if you've answered some beforehand and you'd be right about the others.
    I could address each of those. I just choose not to.

    But on a more serious note, why would an omnipotent be unable to defy logic? Omnipotent = can do ANYTHING.
    Because even Christians realize that this would be the deathknell of what little credibility they have. The moment they dismiss logic then, hey, free for all.
    "Okay, but squizfardle humarits warb, QED I am right and there is no God."
    Accepting logic, at least nominally, is the bare minimum needed for meaningful communication and that is why even theologians concede that God's omnipotence is limited by logic. Also I'd argue that you could still call it omnipotence even with that limit, since God can still do anything - logically impossible things are not even 'things' which is why they're impossible. So anything that is really a thing is within God's ability.

    And I've already demonstrated via foolproof logic that God is evil and wants people to go to Hell, but really that's just quibbling. Why argue that God is evil when he doesn't even exist? God's evil is the same as the evil of Doctor Doom, Alex DeLarge, Darth Vader, and any other fictional character. The only difference is that God's fanbase, unlike Doctor Doom's, is willing to kill, rape, and torture in his name.

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  8. #588
    One Thousand Member Regantor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    I think it would be pointless to design a hyper-sentient super intelligent species if you're going to pull the strings on everything. Furthermore, it's pointless to create an entire planet if all of it's functions aren't allowed to come through. If anything, humans and this planet are just a labor of love, like children, which were refined to a certain point but eventually allowed to run their own course. You also have to consider how much "God" can interfere with things. ///
    Your points are fair enough. But, I think you are oversimplifying a few things. Murderers and adulterers become that way because of faults in their parent societies. Blowing them up doesn't really fix the society as a whole; Which, yes, you could argue is why an all-powerful being does not interfere... Until you factor in that it's a bit like thanking a man for only running you over a little with his car.

    Alright, let's put it this way. If a man is miraculously cured of a deadly disease, for instance, he might turn to god. But wasn't it god that created that disease in the first place?

    It's nothing like a man ignoring a forest fire because it's 'natural'. In this case, that man actively sat down and created the forest, the fire, and the specific potential for wood to burn so well. This is what I was trying to say about fate and logic. He can't just be negligent, he's a full on cheesy super villain, like Kodos says.

    But I digress. The only 'god' that I can see existing, as I have mentioned in the past, it the society of humans itself. Consider for a moment that every single piece of knowledge ever gained, every single language and every single moral, are all just concepts crafted by humans. Human society floats around like a ghost, hoping between brains and changing our decisions. It even brings new inventions into reality like no religion can alone. People's bodies die, but their minds can still live on as memories, or even media, like bootleg ghosts. Copies of their personalities are made in the brains of others. Best of all, we can prove in solid stone that all of it does exist.

  9. #589
    Fenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    The only difference is that God's fanbase, unlike Doctor Doom's, is willing to kill, rape, and torture in his name.
    See, this is what keeps bringing me back to this thread, despite my repeated claims of agreeing with you. I DON'T SEE IT! I hear about it sometimes, and maybe once or twice I've seen these types of cases. But mostly, I don't get this. I hear, see, and experience around me far more death, violence, and crime due to poverty, unresolved child issues, sickness/medical problems, and stupidity than I see people running around with crucifixes stabbing and raping people. In the past, hell yeah God inspired tons of that stuff. But even then, how many people killed in the name of God compared to people killing "in the name of God" because it was a convenient scapegoat reason for their evil actions?

  10. #590
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regantor View Post
    Murderers and adulterers become that way because of faults in their parent societies.
    Whoa whoa whoa. I have a personal issue with this. Though I don't doubt these things can influence a person, I wouldn't place blame entirely on them. I grew up in a society that was bad. I don't mean America bad I mean third-world bad with child soldiers and protestors being torched on the street and such. I'm not a psychopath. Hell, the only crime I commit is drinking sometimes in the comfort of my own apartment with the roomies and pirating. If anything, growing up in such a place has taught me to live a more fulfilling life.

    But wasn't it god that created that disease in the first place?
    Technically, no. Like I said, I'd argue "God" is no different from a scientist watching over a culture. He just puts things into the mix and watches them play out. In this case, he threw some microorganisms into the mix and disease was the result. But we only consider disease "bad" because we place such importance on humans and thus are unwilling to accept it as a part of nature. It's adverse to humans, therefore it's cruel. But our nature is adverse to the animals we eat, but it is not cruel. Surely cows and chickens must resent God in the same way. We refuse to see ourselves as part of a world-wide ecosystem, that is why everything seems so cruel. We consider human supremacy the only "good" outcome and fail to see other lifeforms as our competitors, rather only as our prey.

    ...that man actively sat down and created the forest, the fire, and the specific potential for wood to burn so well.
    It's one thing to create wood, forests and fires. But it's a totally different thing to create a forest fire. Just as it's one thing to create an ocean, but a totally different thing to create a disastrous flood. I don't think "God" creates the latter. Hey may know the latter is a consequence of these things, but I don't think he sits there conjuring up natural disasters in his free time. In a way, it is rather cruel to create something with a potential for disaster. But hey, we as humans do it all the time. Guns, anyone? Given there is a God, human beings were his most disastrous creation. Hell we've raped the planet within 1% of its lifetime. We're the biggest disaster to ever happen.

    And Fenn, it's because Christians are not evil (gasp). The religion may sow some bad seeds but most of them know right from wrong just as well as the rest of us. The only thing we can really peg 'em on is being really homophobic, but that's common even among non-Christians (esp. last-generation Asians, who hold fast to extremely outdated values), so it's not even a "Christian" thing. If you're waiting for another Crusade, it's not gonna happen. Society has evolved way too much.
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 10-17-2011 at 07:13 AM.

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