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Thread: Psalm 14: Who was Jesus' grandpa?

  1. #41
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Context. Read the preceding verses. It's detailing rape scenarios and proscribing punishments.

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  2. #42
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    No... They're about Chastity. (Unless I'm mis-reading it, but consdering it says the "Laws Concerning Chastity" in regards to Verses 13-30, and 1-12 seem to be about farming, I don't think I am.)

  3. #43
    999 Knights Member jaidurn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon_Barbarian View Post
    No... They're about Chastity. (Unless I'm mis-reading it, but consdering it says the "Laws Concerning Chastity" in regards to Verses 13-30, and 1-12 seem to be about farming, I don't think I am.)
    misreading*

    What version of the bible are you guys discussing?

  4. #44
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    I'm using the one on the SAB. King James Version.

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  5. #45
    Regular Member zizi's Avatar
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    They're in regards to chastity as concerned with rape; once a man had 'humbled' a woman (that is, make her lose all her value by taking away the only thing about her that is important; her virginity) part of his punishment is to marry her.

    Also, how the hell does "lay hold on her, and lie with her" not sound like rape to you? To 'lay hold on her' means 'to use force'.

    Also, fun fact, if the 'damsel' in question refuses to marry her attacker then she's to be stoned to death.

    Also, as a person who has worked with rape & sexual assult victims in the UK: Yes the conviction rate for rape is reprehensibly, repulsivly low. However, this is to do with institutionalised sexism, victim blaming, rape apologism, a massive confusion as to what, exactly constitutes consent, the huge stigma surrounding rape and sexual assult and other things, as opposed to the bible's 'lol a woman's rape is worth this much money and the shame of being wedded to the victim'.
    The bible's suggested punishment for rape is laughable compared to the suggested punishments doled out for various other crimes. (Including, as noted above, the very victim refusing to marry her rapist). The bible stance on rape is very clear: you are not being punished for rapeing the woman, you are being punished for stealing from her father.

  6. #46
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    Jai: I'm using some King James version.

    Quote Originally Posted by zizi View Post
    Also, how the hell does "lay hold on her, and lie with her" not sound like rape to you? To 'lay hold on her' means 'to use force'.
    To lay hold on mean to lie down. I see no implications of force in the definition I'm using.

    Quote Originally Posted by zizi View Post
    Also, fun fact, if the 'damsel' in question refuses to marry her attacker then she's to be stoned to death.
    Dont see that in my version.

    Quote Originally Posted by zizi View Post
    The bible stance on rape is very clear: you are not being punished for rapeing the woman, you are being punished for stealing from her father.
    While that may be true, it isn't inherent to the Bible. It's the times. Im pretty positve if I asked a Pastor today what he OR she thought the appropiate punishment for rape should be, it wouldn't be the one in the Bible.

  7. #47
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    The fact that women were almost universally considered property at the time does not mean the Bible is exempt from responsibility. The Bible is a collection of vile stories written by primitive savages that is used to guide the lives of billions of human beings. There's a big difference in importance between what the Bible says and what some random fuckwit did in Ye Olde Tymes. And you're right. But the point is that it shows the Bible is either not the word of God or that God believes rape is not that big of a deal.

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  8. #48
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    No, but it isn't something it started. It didn't create the evil, it just went with it. And at that time, it wasn't an evil thing. Society, and the standards it hold people to change. And as you say, it was written buy people, who we would now consider less then intelligent in regard to most aspects. They were clearly just making up stories, and as you have agreed with, people today clearly don't take everything in the Bible seriously/for granted, so why does it matter exactly?

  9. #49
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Because there are people who take everything the Bible says seriously. Furthermore because there are over one billion people on this planet who call themselves Christian. They must acknowledge this book is not divinely inspired at all and instead the work of truly evil men or accept even passages as repugnant as that one. You can't have it both ways.

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  10. #50
    Regular Member zizi's Avatar
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    Dude are you stupid?

    To cause to lie down. The problematic words here are 'to cause'. That implies force; it does not imply consent. Also, quit cutting the phrase in half. The phrase is "lay hold on her, and lie with her". That means; "To cause to lie down, to have sex with her". This means rape.

    Hey, fuck it, I'm not going to argue with you, I am going to tell you by taking the origional words of the bible and translating them.

    Taphas - (The hebrew word that is translated in the King James as "lay hold on")

    1) to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield
    a) (Qal)
    1) to lay hold of, seize, arrest, catch
    2) to grasp (in order to) wield, wield, use skilfully
    b) (Niphal) to be seized, be arrested, be caught, be taken, captured
    c) (Piel) to catch, grasp (with the hands)

    Here are the meanings listed by the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. When coupled with-

    shakab - (the hebrew that is translated to 'lie with'
    1) to lie down

    a) (Qal)
    1) to lie, lie down, lie on
    2) to lodge
    3) to lie (of sexual relations)
    4) to lie down (in death)
    5) to rest, relax (fig)
    b) (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)
    c) (Pual) to be lain with (sexually)
    d) (Hiphil) to make to lie down
    e) (Hophal) to be laid

    The meaning is very fucking clearly rape. They are talking about 'grasping in order to weild' a woman and having sex with her.

    Also, the idea of consent in relation to the Bible is rediculous. The Bible makes it abundently clear that women are not real people.

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