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Thread: Psalm 14: Who was Jesus' grandpa?

  1. #131
    Fenn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Sorry. Been a bit busy and tired the last few days. Haven't had the time to give this thread the attention it deserves.
    That's exactly what I figured and why I said no rush. It's not like you haven't contributed already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Probably. But now they are forced to adopt philosophies that force them to use logic and argumentation to justify their beliefs. There is now a common ground between the evil and the good and the possibility for swaying them. A man who believes that it is okay to murder because of logical reasons is a man who can be reasoned with. A man who believes that it is okay to murder because a magical sky tyrant said so in a book written thousands of years ago that he knows is true by faith is impossible to be reasoned with.
    Once faith is eliminated progress becomes possible.
    Well that's kind of what I meant. If they believed in religion then they believe in faith. And faith is not limited to mystical beings but also superstitions and just about anything else. You can have faith in a person, for example, even though they give a logical person no reason to believe or trust them in whatever it is you believe they will do/think/say. And if someone believes in faith they obviously do not confine themselves by logic thus trying to logically convince them that faith is illogical is thus illogical.

    That last sentence is quite humorous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    The fallacy here is that you assume organizations exist. They do not. An organization is simply an aggregate of individuals. "The Catholic Church" does not really exist. It is just a word we use to describe a large grouping of people behaving in a certain way. Groups are nothing more than collections of individuals. The Catholic Church is evil because the individuals making it up are evil (through either action or inaction). Groups may be prescriptive in that peer pressure or coercion causes members to behave in a certain way, but ultimately they are descriptive.
    Wouldn't the organization also be made up of the works and or ideas which those individuals adhere to? Also, I was implying that the leaders of the organization were separate from the general following, which they are in a way. The leader(s) choose to follow the system of beliefs and values of their own accord, while the general following listens to those leaders and invests an amount of trust in them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Well the problem there is that it depends how you define perfect. If you include morally perfect then, yeah, it's a logical impossibility. If you don't include that, though, it's easy - he's a dick. Ever play the Sims, or even Sim City? Something tells me that if you did that you, at least once, decided to be a jerk to your virtual minions. Same thing. If an omnipotent and omniscient being exists the only logical conclusion that can be drawn about him/her/it is that he/she/it is the most evil being to ever exist, by definition, since literally every single bad thing that has ever happened or will ever happen is its fault.
    So is literally every single good thing though.


    Anyway, what does applying labels such as "evil" do anyway, even in a philosophical debate? Unless we agree on a definition of evil from the start, this idea is subjective.

    If someone lives a life of "evil," enjoys it, and dies before justice is served, who has the right to suggest that person was in the wrong? What possible logic could be applied to that person during their life to convince them to change their ways?

  2. #132
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    That's exactly what I figured and why I said no rush. It's not like you haven't contributed already.

    Well that's kind of what I meant. If they believed in religion then they believe in faith. And faith is not limited to mystical beings but also superstitions and just about anything else.
    Once you remove religion superstition becomes much harder to justify. The goal is to create a culture of logic. A culture where people understand that they are responsible for their actions and beliefs and that if they wish to sway others to their beliefs that they must argue them well, rather than appealing to imaginary threats and "because!"

    You can have faith in a person, for example, even though they give a logical person no reason to believe or trust them in whatever it is you believe they will do/think/say.
    Nonsense. People's faith in people is rooted in logic. If your best friend asked you to borrow 50 dollars and you had it to spare, you'd probably give it to him. If a random stranger asked you for 50 bucks you'd probably not do the same. Even if you didn't expect it back you might still do it for the logical reason of "I desire to see my friend happy. Giving my friend money will make him happy. I can afford to give him money. I should give him the money."

    There's still a logical process going on.

    And if someone believes in faith they obviously do not confine themselves by logic thus trying to logically convince them that faith is illogical is thus illogical.
    Except they do believe in logic. They just try and have it both ways. When someone says they don't believe in logic the simple counter is (besides the fact that logic is how our brains work) to point out that they do not stand in front of moving cars.

    [quote]Wouldn't the organization also be made up of the works and or ideas which those individuals adhere to?[/quotes]
    Ideas exist only in the hearts and minds of men. And works are verbs, not nouns. They are things that happen when people act on their ideas. Ultimately you get back to the fact that a group is just an aggregate of people and has no life or existence beyond its parts.

    Also, I was implying that the leaders of the organization were separate from the general following, which they are in a way.
    Except these are organizations you can willingly join or leave and which are based around a shared ideology. If you are a willing member of an ideological organization you are - by the simple act of being a member - implicitly saying that you approve of it. When we are confronted with evil we have the moral obligation to resist it or, at the very least, not to help it. By joining an evil organization you show your support and also more likely than not aid it in some way. So while the beliefs and orders may come down from 'on high' your continued acceptance of these orders is tantamount to saying that were you in command you would do similar or the same.

    The leader(s) choose to follow the system of beliefs and values of their own accord, while the general following listens to those leaders and invests an amount of trust in them.
    See above.

    Anyway, what does applying labels such as "evil" do anyway, even in a philosophical debate? Unless we agree on a definition of evil from the start, this idea is subjective.
    If we accept that there exists evil - however you define it - and that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then the only logical conclusion is that God is evil. Period. There can be no alternative. No matter how you define evil the fact comes down to the fact that God is able and aware of it and yet does nothing to stop it.

    If someone lives a life of "evil," enjoys it, and dies before justice is served, who has the right to suggest that person was in the wrong? What possible logic could be applied to that person during their life to convince them to change their ways?
    Nothing. Morality all ultimately boils down in a way to might makes right. But the fact remains that systems of morality like the one I have espoused are the sort that allow for most people to live extremely happy and rewarding lives without much hassle. Additionally there are logical reasons to behave.

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  3. #133
    Teen Member DemonKaiser93's Avatar
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    Well, I'm an acnostic, so I don't believe in "god" for one of the most simple reasons, "why would I believe in something without proof"
    and even that why does "god" have to be a being?, I mean , could have been a event ,like , "if god created everything the he may as well be the big bang" I mean without proof theres nothing...
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  4. #134
    Teen Member DemonKaiser93's Avatar
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    Well there's no god so there's no evil we are not diferent from animals , whe have instincs ,the only one that says he is evil is the society, the system, babylon, the same man-made society that corrupts everything and everyone, making sure theres something wrong with you and then the stupid people turn to the religion because with the bullshit they sell they thing that it will save you, In this world theres no good or bad people, theres just stupid people and thouse who know how to control the stupid masses
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  5. #135
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    Please don't double post.

  6. #136
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonKaiser93 View Post
    Well, I'm an acnostic, so I don't believe in "god" for one of the most simple reasons, "why would I believe in something without proof"
    and even that why does "god" have to be a being?, I mean , could have been a event ,like , "if god created everything the he may as well be the big bang" I mean without proof theres nothing...
    Agnostic. And that makes you an atheist.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonKaiser93 View Post
    Well there's no god so there's no evil
    The existence or non-existence of God has literally zero impact on the existence or non-existence of morals. This is basic ethics and can be derived from relatively simple logical deduction. I demonstrated this earlier in the thread.

    we are not diferent from animals
    No. We very clearly are different from other animals. This difference is most likely one of degree of qualities and not of kind of qualities, but the fact remains that we are very clearly different from other animals.

    , whe have instincs ,
    We have instincts, but we also have the (sadly often ignored) ability to suppress them. Also please type better.

    the only one that says he is evil is the society, the system, babylon, the same man-made society that corrupts everything and everyone,
    Society does not exist. Did you ignore what I said about groups? To say society, not man, is evil is a literal contradiction. Society is nothing but a collection of humans. Also to say that something corrupts something is to implicitly acknowledge that evil exists. You are stating that there is some ideal state for a man to exist in (good) and that society is taking him away from it (evil).

    making sure theres something wrong with you and then the stupid people turn to the religion because with the bullshit they sell they thing that it will save you,
    No, there are a lot of things wrong with people. Society creates illusory problems, but the reasons most people turn to religion are not based on society. Society cannot cause you to develop a brain tumor.

    In this world theres no good or bad people,
    I disagree and judging by your inconsistent argument, so do you.

    theres just stupid people and thouse who know how to control the stupid masses
    See above. By your language it is very clear you consider stupidity to be an unacceptable choice - ergo you consider it evil.

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  7. #137
    Teen Member DemonKaiser93's Avatar
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    mmmm no I don't consider it unacceptable, and the only thing that differs us from animals is consciousness...

    also, theres no such thing as atheism, the proper word is agnostic...
    Last edited by DemonKaiser93; 01-23-2011 at 02:10 AM.
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  8. #138
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonKaiser93 View Post
    Well, I'm an acnostic, so I don't believe in "god" for one of the most simple reasons, "why would I believe in something without proof"
    and even that why does "god" have to be a being?, I mean , could have been a event ,like , "if god created everything the he may as well be the big bang" I mean without proof theres nothing...
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonKaiser93 View Post
    Well there's no god so there's no evil we are not diferent from animals , whe have instincs ,the only one that says he is evil is the society, the system, babylon, the same man-made society that corrupts everything and everyone, making sure theres something wrong with you and then the stupid people turn to the religion because with the bullshit they sell they thing that it will save you, In this world theres no good or bad people, theres just stupid people and thouse who know how to control the stupid masses
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonKaiser93 View Post
    mmmm no I don't consider it unacceptable, and the only thing that differs us from animals is consciousness...
    Animals have consciousness. What humans have that (most) other animals seem to not have is sapience. And whatever the word you use, the point is that if you can't see how a human differs from other animals you are retarded. The difference is most likely one of quality and not of kind, but the difference is still there. The difference between a human brain, a dog brain, and a computer ultimately is one of quality and not kind and yet no one would say these three things are identical. Differences of quality are still differences.

    also, theres no such thing as atheism, the proper word is agnostic...
    This sentence is so stupid that I don't even know where to begin. You're going to have to elaborate on that.

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  9. #139
    Fenn
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    Wink Blunt replies to artfully answered questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Once you remove religion superstition becomes much harder to justify. The goal is to create a culture of logic. A culture where people understand that they are responsible for their actions and beliefs and that if they wish to sway others to their beliefs that they must argue them well, rather than appealing to imaginary threats and "because!"
    The difficulty is that ignorance is a choice. People have the power to say, "Whatever, I dont' care."


    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Nonsense. People's faith in people is rooted in logic. If your best friend asked you to borrow 50 dollars and you had it to spare, you'd probably give it to him. If a random stranger asked you for 50 bucks you'd probably not do the same. Even if you didn't expect it back you might still do it for the logical reason of "I desire to see my friend happy. Giving my friend money will make him happy. I can afford to give him money. I should give him the money."

    There's still a logical process going on.
    Word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Except they do believe in logic. They just try and have it both ways. When someone says they don't believe in logic the simple counter is (besides the fact that logic is how our brains work) to point out that they do not stand in front of moving cars.
    Somehow, people believe that logic is a switch that can be turned on and off at their convenience. How do you counter such an argument, since even if you can prove that you are right, they will not feel compelled at all to change their ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Ideas exist only in the hearts and minds of men. And works are verbs, not nouns. They are things that happen when people act on their ideas. Ultimately you get back to the fact that a group is just an aggregate of people and has no life or existence beyond its parts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Except these are organizations you can willingly join or leave and which are based around a shared ideology. If you are a willing member of an ideological organization you are - by the simple act of being a member - implicitly saying that you approve of it. When we are confronted with evil we have the moral obligation to resist it or, at the very least, not to help it. By joining an evil organization you show your support and also more likely than not aid it in some way. So while the beliefs and orders may come down from 'on high' your continued acceptance of these orders is tantamount to saying that were you in command you would do similar or the same.


    See above.
    Um, maybe I was unclear about my argument, but you just agreed with me. It is upon the general members of an organization to take the blame and subsequently disband and destroy said group. Accusing those at the top of the pyramid, as people often do, is useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    If we accept that there exists evil - however you define it - and that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then the only logical conclusion is that God is evil. Period. There can be no alternative. No matter how you define evil the fact comes down to the fact that God is able and aware of it and yet does nothing to stop it.
    You need a definition, or at least some sort of very general guidelines referring to the denotation and most frequent connotations of the word. I could define evil people as anyone who doesn't agree with me. Also, calling God evil without defining evil at all is futile.

    Guess what, Kodos, you're evil.

    See? No one gains or loses anything by such a vague statement. If I were to specifiy evil, people might be more convinced to shun you, or God, or whoever is receiving such a label. Words like evil are created by man; there is no objective and concrete, physical evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    Nothing. Morality all ultimately boils down in a way to might makes right. But the fact remains that systems of morality like the one I have espoused are the sort that allow for most people to live extremely happy and rewarding lives without much hassle. Additionally there are logical reasons to behave.
    Goes back to people needing to use logic.

    Anyways, I like to think that the best way to live is the one which places the least material requirements. Once we attach ourselves to anything physical (outside of food, protection from the elements, and medicine) we open ourselves to a world of potential loss and pain. The less you have, the harder it is to be hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    And whatever the word you use, the point is that if you can't see how a human differs from other animals you are retarded.
    Just wanted to point out another example of how words can have such little meaning without definition. I know humans are different, but not how, and I'm pretty sure most of the world doesn't have the scientific knowledge to explain it properly, even if they observe it on some level. Thus, most of the world is retarded, and the weight of that description is greatly lessened.

  10. #140
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
    The difficulty is that ignorance is a choice. People have the power to say, "Whatever, I dont' care."




    Word.



    Somehow, people believe that logic is a switch that can be turned on and off at their convenience. How do you counter such an argument, since even if you can prove that you are right, they will not feel compelled at all to change their ways?





    Um, maybe I was unclear about my argument, but you just agreed with me. It is upon the general members of an organization to take the blame and subsequently disband and destroy said group. Accusing those at the top of the pyramid, as people often do, is useless.



    You need a definition, or at least some sort of very general guidelines referring to the denotation and most frequent connotations of the word. I could define evil people as anyone who doesn't agree with me. Also, calling God evil without defining evil at all is futile.

    Guess what, Kodos, you're evil.

    See? No one gains or loses anything by such a vague statement. If I were to specifiy evil, people might be more convinced to shun you, or God, or whoever is receiving such a label. Words like evil are created by man; there is no objective and concrete, physical evil.
    I disagree here and can logically demonstrate it. Watch:
    Premise 1. God is omnipotent.
    Premise 2. God is omniscient.
    Conclusion: Anything that happens happens only by God's allowance.
    Premise 1. God is omnipotent and omniscient and ergo can prevent any action he does not care for from happening.
    Premise 2. God is omnipotent ergo any action he takes costs him literally nothing in terms of effort.
    Conclusion: Anything that happens can be said to happen only either with God's direct approval or God's utter indifference.
    Premise 1. [Any definition of evil]
    Premise 2. Evil happens.
    Conclusion: Evil happens only because of God's approval and/or callous indifference.

    See? How you define evil does not matter. As long as you believe in some definition of evil and in the omnipotence and omniscience of God, then God's culpability is inevitable. The above is a deductive argument. You must fault a premise in order for it to be false.


    Anyways, I like to think that the best way to live is the one which places the least material requirements. Once we attach ourselves to anything physical (outside of food, protection from the elements, and medicine) we open ourselves to a world of potential loss and pain.
    That's silly. It's one thing to be unnecessarily addicted to possessions and to value things over people, but there is nothing wrong with liking nice things.

    The less you have, the harder it is to be hurt.
    If a man with much loses 10,000 dollars odds are he will not starve to death. If a man with little loses 1,000 dollars there is a very real chance he will starve.

    Just wanted to point out another example of how words can have such little meaning without definition. I know humans are different, but not how, and I'm pretty sure most of the world doesn't have the scientific knowledge to explain it properly, even if they observe it on some level. Thus, most of the world is retarded, and the weight of that description is greatly lessened.
    Intelligence. It is overwhelmingly likely that the difference between humans and other animals is one of degree and not kind. It is not that we have some unique trait that no other animal has, it's simply that we have a certain trait (intelligence) in far greater abundance than they have. And either way, science can and does identify the ways human differ. We have civilization, science, and culture. No other animal has the first two things, and with the possible exception of a few higher primates nothing else we know of has anything resembling culture.

    That said, I am strongly leaning towards the idea of cetacean personhood. Given what we know of dolphins it seems to me that any society that can consider the mentally retarded to be persons must also do the same for dolphins. But that is neither here nor there.

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