The Crime Thread - Cause, Effect, Sentencing, Empathy

**Delphinus** · 09-04-2011, 08:33 PM

But Fenn, if there's nobody in jail, how will the American economy sustain itself?

5% of workers down the drain just like that? That would never work.

**Black_Shaggie** · 09-04-2011, 08:36 PM

I see what you mean by the intmates that don't work Cypress & I'll get to that in a moment. Thanks for the clarification &, my fault on the freedom/ rights missunderstanding. You're right, inmates do have some rights, however limited they may be. But you must believe me when I say to you that, despite other posters here in MT's forums, I am not trying to demonize you or your argument.

I'm just giving my opinion on how I feel about & see the issue just like you or anyone else.

First, let me say this. All convicts (at least in the states) have a job...some kind of job to do. This is integral to their rehabilitation. No one prisoner can say to his or her Warden "That's okay boss, Ima just stay in my cell,". I mean, after 30 days...which is just enough time to get their paperwork processed & them fully 'intergrated' into general population, these people, all of them, are working. For a little as 10cents/hour. So they are working. All of them & not just for commodities either.

What I mean is that the profits from the labor of inmates should be pumped back into the prison's maintenance costs.

Hey man, I can not argue with you there. But what I mean is those profits are going into pockets where they don't belong. Prisonis a big buisness & the product being sold is cheap...CHEAP friggin' labor. As long as this continues in the federal, state & private institutions & our government allows it to continue. The prisons themselves will continue to be a drain on the taxpayers' dollar. But that isn't the prisoner's fault. Correct me if I'm wrong here but I thought that was what you were trying to say is that you blame the prisoners for not working to take care of themselves right?

I'm not contesting that. But I am saying they are no more slaves than I am if they're made to earn their commodities. Because that's exactly what I do. Getting what you earn //should be the standard//. My wage-slaving is not giving me what I earn and the labor of inmates is not giving them what they earn. So let's stop enslaving our taxpayers AND our inmates.

That's exactly what should be done dude. Again, no arguement there. I think the blame should be directed at a higher authority than a corrupt prison system, however.

And...since we still possess the liberty to at least go out & find better jobs for ourselves...no matter how difficult a task this may be...& prisoners don't have that same liberty...they suffer from an even worse form of slavery than we do.

If they are going to work, then we need to give them back something more than "better maintenance", we need to give them a chance of trust to believe they can be back to society and don't come back to jail.

I agree with this Clock, that's what rehabilitation works in my book. The problem is just as Cypress is stating the powers that be are not allowing this tohappen because they'd rather profit from a prisoner's incarceration. All of us suffer when greed is involved.

**CypressDahlia** · 09-04-2011, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Black_Shaggie

First, let me say this. All convicts (at least in the states) have a job...some kind of job to do.

Yes, very minor maintenance jobs. But these are hardly considered jobs so much as they are considered chores. Sorting laundry, ladling food, sweeping floors are all compulsory parts of living in any kind of residence. I also have to do similar tasks to maintain my apartment from time to time and nobody is paying me to do it. I'm talking about actual services--legitimate work.

...you blame the prisoners for not working to take care of themselves right?

Well, to begin with, I blame prisoners for being prisoners. If they were autonomous citizens like the rest of us, they would be working to support themselves and not rotting away in jail. In essence, they've already failed the "taking care of themselves" part. But I know that's not what you meant. Essentially, though, they don't work to take care of themselves. No matter how little they work, how hard they work, how little they earn or how much they earn, they will always receive steady charity from the taxpayers. It doesn't matter if an inmates projected income is 40 cents or 40 dollars because there is always guaranteed to be millions in taxpayer money to make up the difference. It's not really "supporting themselves" when the work they do is not the determinant of how much they get. They will always get "enough". Whereas I have to worry if I'm working enough hours to pay the rent. There isn't always going to be a multi-million dollar charity fund available for when I don't make the cut. If I'm 200 dollars short, nobody but me is responsible for making up the difference. Do you see what I mean?

...& prisoners don't have that same liberty...

We never took that opportunity away from them, so there is no need to sympathize for that. They took that opportunity away from themselves when they decided to become criminals.

Originally Posted by ClockHand

But with the idea that you want them to be forever in jail and also work, you are making them slaves.

We are mixing two different arguments here: the "death sentence" and labor arguments. First of all, I don't want anyone to be "forever in jail". Remember, I support the death penalty. Life sentences are pointless to me. You can read the reasons why in my prior posts. If we ever have inmates so dangerous that we need to remove them from society for the remainder of their life, it's better to just execute them. Attempting to rehabilitate those types is just gambling on the safety of innocent people.

But the average jailbird does not fit that description. Those "average" criminals, I don't mind attempting to rehabilitate and assimilate back into society. The ones doing 5-10 for serial kleptomania or far less severe charges. Basically, non dead-end criminals. I still find these people despicable, but since they're going to be set free eventually, might aswell try our best to rehabilitate them.