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Thread: The Crime Thread - Cause, Effect, Sentencing, Empathy

  1. #71
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    lol. I never said they all "had it great". But I know these things to be true: I work for just above minimum wage. At 8 bucks and hour, I make about 400 bucks a week. After tax deductions, I'm left with maybe 320. Technically, I have worked for way below minimum wage when you divide that up among the hours. And you know where that money that I rightfully earned is going? Supporting people who have been detained for harming the innocent. They're getting paid by me, the guy who is working for an adjusted wage of well below 7 dollars an hour, to be the scum of the Earth. They're getting the same commodities I have to buy with my hard-earned cash, for free.
    So your problem is not that criminals live through your taxes, is that you have a crappy job and the system suck money from you without thinking your social class and needs. It's seems to me, this is more about you than the criminals, and also, more about the economic system where you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    It doesn't seem entirely unfair to, you know, possibly find a way where they can support themselves through work? Like the rest of society? Maybe be less of an overall burden to humanity, you know, on top of being a plague on morals and actually hurting people? If that's slavery, then by God I am the biggest slave ever because I'm working for my own stuff AND theirs. But you know, that's justice! Darn 'ol justice.
    Yes there is a way, but it mean you have to integrate criminals to the society, thing you don't want in the first place.

  2. #72
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    So your problem is not that criminals live through your taxes...
    Actually, no, just this statement right here. I live pretty comfortably, but I don't like the fact that I'm essentially working under the legal minimum wage to provide for criminals when they have done nothing but harm society. Essentially someone is taking money out of my pocket and giving it to despicable people. I don't really find comfort in that.

    Yes there is a way, but it mean you have to integrate criminals to the society.
    Why? I understand you have a problem with detainment, but the detainment part is by standard of law, not by work contract. It's not slavery. They're not forced to work, only detained. The profits of their work will go entirely toward commodities for them. Maybe you misunderstand the concept of slavery considering the idea I've suggested is little different from a fund-raiser lol.

  3. #73
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    They're no more a slave than I am. Actually, I would argue that I'm more so a slave considering I'm expected by law to PAY for their stuff while they do nothing. Furthermore, I did nothing wrong to deserve this kind of burden.
    You have said that you are more of a slave than a criminal in prison. Unless you find slavery to be a preferable state to freedom, I do not see how you can argue that prisoners do not have it better than you. If this is the case then why do you not go to prison so you can improve your quality of life?

    You keep dodging it. Your entire argument is like the right wing lunatics who prattle on about how great undocumented immigrants have it, and then when challenged to renounce their citizenship come up with a litany of excuses. Only in your case it's criminals rather than immigrants, and freedom rather than citizenship.

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  4. #74
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    You have said that you are more of a slave than a criminal in prison...
    You're not srs, right? I guess you've never heard "slave" used in the figurative sense. Here, let me help you out:



    Clearly Britney Spears is offering to sign a work contract.

  5. #75
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    You use the word 'slave' in the same sentence as talking about people doing labor in regards to compensation. If you cannot understand how a person would take your use of the word slave there in a literal rather than metaphorical sense, I don't know what to say.

    You are, as often is your mode of operation, being deliberately obtuse and then backpedaling when called out and acting like you were joking. I'm through debating this topic - or any - with you because there can be no meaningful debate with you. It's like arguing with an serial amnesiac - the past is fluid and malleable for you.

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  6. #76
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    It's not slavery considering it's exactly what the rest of us are doing. Unless you mean not giving people free stuff and expecting them to work for it is slavery. In which case, I'm totally a slave. I work at Petco.
    It was a sarcastic remark comparing wage slavery to slavery-slavery. Kodos, I know you have something against me, but please stop getting your panties in a knot every time we debate. I honestly roll my eyes whenever I read "deliberately obtuse" and "backpedaling". You're just not following the conversation between me and Clockhand closely enough. So I can only guess your impatience stems from us misunderstanding each other. I backpedal to re-address points that have been misconstrued or have to be re-clarified to corroborate with the current line of logic.

    Honestly, if you're not willing to debate with me, don't bother in the first place lol.

    Also, how many times has it been the "last time" you wanted to debate with me?
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 09-04-2011 at 03:04 AM.

  7. #77
    Devilish Member Black_Shaggie's Avatar
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    Man, I just woke up & checked this thread because I like the discussions here.

    Cype, I'm not sure you understand how things work when someone is incarcerated. They don't just stay locked down or in the yard pumping iron & playing basketball (I'll leave the shanking & soap dropping jokes out of this). No sir, they have to work as part of their rehablitation. And, since they techicnally don't have rights (you said it) they wind up working for little or no money at all.

    I'm not just talking about facility upkeep & government labor farming...allthough that's bad enough. No, I am refering to them being farmed out to private contractors from the same thing. You mentioned your making $8/hr for $400/bi-monthly & how it's taxes make that more like $320. You questioned where that money's going & then eluded to it going to supporting people detained for harming the innocent.

    I am not saying that us who are free aren't stuck in a similar position either dude. We are. I'm a freelance illustrator & if I don't meet my required deadlines I don't get paid. Plus the advances I get for compensation of works done barely keep the lights on while I'm waiting for shit to get published or produced for my perecentage (usually a small one) of retail sales. To this end, I'm a slave to my job as we all are. But I do it because I like working in the field & I'm free to. What I am saying is that the people incarcerated do indeed have things worse than we do & they're not just waiting around for their sentences to be over.

    Then you said this:

    It doesn't seem entirely unfair to, you know, possibly find a way where they can support themselves through work? Like the rest of society?
    Well, here's something Peter Gilmore has to say on the subject:

    Keeping all these people in jail costs a lot of money. States are now spending about $25 billion a year on corrections. Caught between anti-tax agitation and anti-prisoner sentiment, a growing number of states are actually requiring prisoners to pay for their own incarceration. And of course, the private use of prison labor and the growing move to privatize prisons have a seductive appeal to state officials who can't be bothered about the loss of jobs and declining living standards for those workers still at liberty.
    Check out the entire source if you'd like:

    http://lpa.igc.org/lpv24/lp3.htm

    I think it proves that the incarcerated are not only working for their room & board, but at a wage far below the minimum to boot, & that this labor supports these private contractors more than themselves. Seeing as they don't have too much say so about how much they get paid or who they work for...you know...because they don't have any rights while incarcerated...that's they exist in a condition very close to slavery.

    They're not forced to work, only detained. The profits of their work will go entirely toward commodities for them.
    I don't think that all the work that they do does. I think a lot of this goes to the private contractors their farmed out too. I would be cool with the idea that they only worked for their own shit, like rest of us because that makes sense. If it were true, then we as tax payers wouldn't have to come out of pocket to support the prison systems. Also, seeing as the trends in correctional facilities are leaning towards privatized prisons, I feel that the incarcerated are being used for far more than their own upkeep.

    I'm just laying this out there for you guys as another perspective on the matter. I'm not picking at your point of view, or anyone else's for that matter. I don't even you know you guys like that. But what I do know is you're all pretty cool, intelligent people with the right to have an opinion & voice it here, so please don't get angry with me. Personally, I agree with the idea of the incarcerated having to work like the rest of us. I'll even go further & say that they should work even harder as part of their rehabilitation too. But the conditions at present...the forced labor...for a wage that barely supports them while benefitting private contractors who could actually create jobs for us who are not in prison. Is pretty fucking close to slavery in my opinion.
    Last edited by Black_Shaggie; 09-04-2011 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #78
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Shaggie View Post
    Cype, I'm not sure you understand how things work when someone is incarcerated...No sir, they have
    to work as part of their rehablitation.
    Yes, I know. I think you have misunderstood my idea. What I mean is that the profits from the labor of inmates should be pumped back into the prison's maintenance costs. If there's extra, improve their commodities. They should be working by the same principle that we do: earn what you get, get what you earn. But as we have it, there are many inmates who //aren't// working or inmates who are working community service without pay. They //should// be using the profits of their labor to support them. But it ends up in someone's back pocket and they expect tax payers to make up for the costs.

    In short, get all inmates to do profitable work and pump those profits back into the upkeep of prisons instead of pocketing it and expecting innocent people to compensate. That's the idea.

    And, since they techicnally don't have rights (you said it)...
    Whoa whoa hold your horses buddy. I never said they don't have rights. I said they don't have freedom. Having no rights and being detained are two entirely different things. In fact, these men are detained //because// their rights are being upheld. They go to court and serve a sentence just like everyone else. If I thought they had no rights, I wouldn't mind killing all of them. But apparently that's not what I'm saying.

    What I am saying is that the people incarcerated do indeed have things worse than we do...
    I'm not contesting that. But I am saying they are no more slaves than I am if they're made to earn their commodities. Because that's exactly what I do. Getting what you earn //should be the standard//. My wage-slaving is not giving me what I earn and the labor of inmates is not giving them what they earn. So let's stop enslaving our taxpayers AND our inmates.

    Well, here's something Peter Gilmore has to say on the subject:
    I'm glad. How many is "a growing number", though? As far as I'm concerned, I'm still paying for this.

    I would be cool with the idea that they only worked for their own shit, like rest of us because that makes sense.
    This is exactly what I'm saying. But demonizing the opposition is a popular method of debate on MT so I'm obviously a slavery advocate for it.

  9. #79
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Here is the thing.

    I agree that they should be able to work, not only to pay their living, but also as a way to help their own families, having profits of their work and as a step to integrate them to society (because, if you go out of jail finding a job become pretty a hard task). But this can only work if: Prison's are controlled by the State (no privates allowed), Prison's can't generate incomes (which mean, the money the interns are making should go to them and their needs), Interns should be able to use their money as they please (with obvious restrictions), Interns should be able to left the facility, Interns should have been under psychological, hallucinogenic and alcohol evaluation periodically.

    For me is ok they win money if is for them and no one is making rich thanks to them. And also as I see it, the jobs must provide help to them to integrate them to society, giving to them a little more freedom but still with constant regulations (if a intern doesn't come back at certain time he is back to jail, and you can put on him a tracker or something). In this way with time they can find better jobs, they can help their families, they can help other interns, they can prove that they can be reformed and fix their lifes.

    But with the idea that you want them to be forever in jail and also work, you are making them slaves. There is a difference between someone who works and has no freedom, to someone who work and has responsibilities. If they are going to work, then we need to give them back something more than "better maintenance", we need to give them a chance of trust to believe they can be back to society and don't come back to jail.

  10. #80
    Fenn
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    Why not. I'm in.

    This kind of debate is a good example of why more focus must be placed on keeping people out of jail to begin with.

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