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Thread: The Crime Thread - Cause, Effect, Sentencing, Empathy

  1. #41
    Devilish Member Black_Shaggie's Avatar
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    Wow Kudos. When you dissect my words in that way...I don't know what to say. I guess in speaking my mind I've inadvertantly put my foot in my mouth.



    Still...if what you're saying is true then Osama wa snothing more than a monster who did horrible things in the name of God for his own goals. To this end, he was completely deluded to the harsh reality of his actions & how the affected the people he thought he was saving. And the people hated him for this. I can conceed to this point. But I still feel that we as humans should have empathy for even the most pitiful & dispicable creatures. NOT to say he's morally justified by comprehesnion of his actions. I may be wrong on this point...& I'm sure someone will point this out to me...humans have their own moral compasses & have a choice in what they do. They should be prepared to except the responsiblty & repercusions for whatever choices they make.

    Again, I'll use my Dad to illustrate this:
    Yes he fought for what he believed was right at the time. He chose to do so. As a result, my mother chose to divorce him. That was only one reaction. Another was he was held accountable for the crimes he commited and did time for them. He says he was prepared to take responsiblity for his crimes & felt justified in his actions. But the biggest repercusion was that over time, he learned to realize that the way he chose to fight for his beliefs were wrong. Today he goes about this in a completely non-violent way. This is what still makes him my hero. Because he chose a better way to stand up for what he believes in. I still don't prescribe to everything that he does believe in, but he goes out of his way to educate the ignorant & give them the tools to think for themselves.

    Osama didn't do any of this. He merely imposed his will upon others & added fuel to a fire that has burned for a long long time. Personally, I don't think he should've been killed
    despite my country's history of Imperialism (Hey man thoughts are changing!) but rather bought to justice for his crimes against the whole of humanity.

    For the record...even though I am an American...I have never held myself in a position of superiorty over anyone else because I am not. We're all human beings & thus equal. But again, we should be held accountable for the choices we make. My patriotic statement above should've been one that related the fact that no life should be taken in such a violent way.

  2. #42
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Kodos, not Kudos. No 'u'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Shaggie View Post
    Still...if what you're saying is true then Osama wa snothing more than a monster who did horrible things in the name of God for his own goals.
    No. He was a person with a severely stunted sense of empathy for people not of his 'tribe' who did terrible things out of a devotion both to his tribe and a desire to avenge them, and out of a desire to serve the imaginary character his diseased culture has convinced him is the lord and master of the universe.

    Osama Bin Laden illustrates the dangers of xenophobia (for want of a better word) and of religion.

    To this end, he was completely deluded to the harsh reality of his actions & how the affected the people he thought he was saving. And the people hated him for this. I can conceed to this point. But I still feel that we as humans should have empathy for even the most pitiful & dispicable creatures. NOT to say he's morally justified by comprehesnion of his actions. I may be wrong on this point...& I'm sure someone will point this out to me...humans have their own moral compasses & have a choice in what they do. They should be prepared to except the responsiblty & repercusions for whatever choices they make.
    Empathy to a point. You'll notice I called what was done to Bin Laden murder. He is still a human being and still entitled to certain rights. It does not, however, mean that Bin Laden was not a dangerous evildoer worthy and deserving of contempt from civilized people and who ought to have been brought to account for his crimes both out of a desire to see justice done and out of a desire to safeguard humanity from further predation by him.

    The moral issues of Bin Laden are made tangled by the fact he was one villain going up against another villain. America is a vile nation and it is in the interest of humanity that America as it exists today be dismantled as soon as possible. However the people in the twin towers, and most of the other victims of Bin Laden's violence, are not really the American government and attacking them is both immoral and pointless. Even in a declared war, most of his targets would not be acceptable.

    He attacked civilians, not military personnel or government officials responsible for atrocities. Hence why I condemn the 9/11 attacks and other acts of terrorism and not, say, the killing of American soldiers in Iraq.

    Again, I'll use my Dad to illustrate this:
    Yes he fought for what he believed was right at the time. He chose to do so. As a result, my mother chose to divorce him. That was only one reaction. Another was he was held accountable for the crimes he commited and did time for them. He says he was prepared to take responsiblity for his crimes & felt justified in his actions. But the biggest repercusion was that over time, he learned to realize that the way he chose to fight for his beliefs were wrong. Today he goes about this in a completely non-violent way. This is what still makes him my hero. Because he chose a better way to stand up for what he believes in. I still don't prescribe to everything that he does believe in, but he goes out of his way to educate the ignorant & give them the tools to think for themselves.

    Osama didn't do any of this. He merely imposed his will upon others & added fuel to a fire that has burned for a long long time. Personally, I don't think he should've been killed
    despite my country's history of Imperialism (Hey man thoughts are changing!)
    You're right, thoughts are changing in America - we're getting much worse, much quicker. We have a terrorist sympathizer in congress who is holding Mcarthy style hearings about the danger posed by Muslim Americans. That's fucking psychotic.
    If America does not have its equivalent of kristallnacht (against Muslim Americans, Arab Americans, and anyone who could be mistaken by an Arab American by an ignorant bigot, of course) within the next decade I will be genuinely shocked.

    but rather bought to justice for his crimes against the whole of humanity.
    I agree. And I'm even more interested in seeing the leaders of America and Israel brought to account for their actions. We did not let the Nazis get away with it, and we shouldn't let these modern day Nazis get away with it, either. Josef Mengele died an old man living in luxury, and so will Dick Chaney.

    For the record...even though I am an American...I have never held myself in a position of superiorty over anyone else because I am not. We're all human beings & thus equal.
    All human beings are not equal. We're all entitled to equal opportunity and treatment under the law, but Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Josef Ratzinger, Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Tenzin Gyatso, and Charles Manson are not equal in any sense of the word.

    But again, we should be held accountable for the choices we make.
    You are only held accountable, in America, if you are not a wealthy white man.

    My patriotic statement above should've been one that related the fact that no life should be taken in such a violent way.
    Language is important, though. How often do people talk of the obscenity of the Holocaust and mention how 6 million Jews died. That's not the tragedy of the Holocaust. The tragedy of the Holocaust is that some 12 million human beings were brutally murdered, most of them Jews.

    By focusing on the identity of the victim in talks that aren't actually focused on motive and how identity related to it, we show prejudice. We create the impression that the identity of the victim is what mattered, not that there was a victim. Language frames discussions and molds how we think. If I tell you "he was only 6 feet tall" and "he was 6 feet tall" I have conveyed to you the exact same facts, but the meaning is different in each example.

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  3. #43
    Devilish Member Black_Shaggie's Avatar
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    All human beings are not equal. We're all entitled to equal opportunity and treatment under the law, but Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Josef Ratzinger, Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Tenzin Gyatso, and Charles Manson are not equal in any sense of the word.
    I can't agree with this. Human beings are all equal. The famous and infamous people used in your stament. Doesn't make them any more or less equal than anyone else because anyone can do what these people heve done regaurdless of opportunity or treatment. Advantaged or humble beginings or treatment by law or classifaction doesn't make anyone greater or lesser than anyone else. What one does with their lives doesn't define equality either. Despite our orgins we're all capable aspiring to the same heights just as easily of sinking to the same depths. You wouldn't say a woman is inferior to a man just because of sex would you? Or indiginous people are not equal to those of us that are more industrious? You can not because they can do the same things as any of us. Women have proven that they are equal to men in every way save for gender itself & since it takes both sexes to create new life we're equal there as well. No industrious or 'modern' person without proper training could survive in a the tribal world of indiginous people without learnig how they live first and advantages of industrialization or technology can be taught to minds of a tribal person because their minds are no less bright as our own. Education...and the way knowledge is coveted or hoarded over seems to be the obfuscating factor that clouds peoples ideas on human equality.

    You are only held accountable, in America, if you are not a wealthy white man.
    Again, I can not agree. Wealth or race doesn't exempt any human being for the accountablity of their actions. However, if society allows them to get away with detrimental actions, then society should be held accountable for allowing to do get away with it in the 1st place. We let people who assume the roles of authority through race, class, religion, law & wealth get away with things they shouldn't becaue we've been convinced that they are our superiors. This is something the whole of society is being held accountable for all the time.

    I agree. And I'm even more interested in seeing the leaders of America and Israel brought to account for their actions. We did not let the Nazis get away with it, and we shouldn't let these modern day Nazis get away with it, either. Josef Mengele died an old man living in luxury, and so will Dick Chaney.
    I agree with you but, if these 'modern Nazis' are to be held responsible for their actions then, it's the duty of the American & Israeli people to do something to prevent them from getting away with what they're doing instead of waiting for someone 'greater' than ourselves to. (See my statement above.)

    You're right, thoughts are changing in America - we're getting much worse, much quicker. We have a terrorist sympathizer in congress who is holding Mcarthy style hearings about the danger posed by Muslim Americans. That's fucking psychotic.
    If America does not have its equivalent of kristallnacht (against Muslim Americans, Arab Americans, and anyone who could be mistaken by an Arab American by an ignorant bigot, of course) within the next decade I will be genuinely shocked.
    Sure, things are really fucked up in this country right now. Because, as I said, thoughts are changing man! The people in this country are like a lethargic giant that's slowly awakening from a bad dream. My meaning is, in time...probally sooner than any of think...the way things are done around the world will change because people are tired of the way are now. When the Roman empire fell, it was the people rising up against what they thought was a corrupt government that caused it. Happens all the time. As we grow collectively in our humanity, old and obsolete ideas on how we govern & treat one another change. This process can't happen overnight. There are still a lot of people who still cling to old and outdated ideas, but the majority of these people will die (of old age) along with their ideas.

    Empathy to a point. You'll notice I called what was done to Bin Laden murder. He is still a human being and still entitled to certain rights. It does not, however, mean that Bin Laden was not a dangerous evildoer worthy and deserving of contempt from civilized people and who ought to have been brought to account for his crimes both out of a desire to see justice done and out of a desire to safeguard humanity from further predation by him.
    Wouldn't the eventual justice of such a murder condem him to death in order to safegaurd humanity from further predation? I don't think he should've been assassinated in the night. To me, this action was just as evil as his own & given the scopes of his crimes...I feel that he should have been captured & then executed for those crimes. To just go in guns blazing & killing others (some who may have been innocent) just to kill him makes the US no less a terrorist than he was.

    He attacked civilians, not military personnel or government officials responsible for atrocities. Hence why I condemn the 9/11 attacks and other acts of terrorism and not, say, the killing of American soldiers in Iraq.
    Terrorism is atrocious any way you look at it. I condemn him for the same reasons...just as I condemn the US to send soilders to Iraq to commit the terrorist acts commited there as a rebutal. The sad truth is, more often than not our soilders were more terrorist than peacebringers in their pursuit of Osama Bin Laden & the Taliban because they have killed a lot of innocents in their fumbling attempts to find the man. My patriotism is for a new America when truth, justice & liberty (especially this last one) for all really mean something.

    The attacks on the World Trade Center & the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 was indeed a tragedy. But it most certainly is not a cultural clash. It has been proven that a person...people of any culture can commit the same crimes against humanity & terrorism for any reason. And in the end, the tragedy lies in the horrible fact that many lives were lost over some misplaced or misconstrued ideology. We all could argue the reasons why forever, but this fact still reamains a somber truth that can never be changed. All we can hope to do as human beings is try to find ways & hope (probally against futility) that it'll never happen again. This can only be accomplished by a change in equal & positive global ideas on how we treat & govern ourselves & even then someone may still try to do something like this again.

    Sorry about the misspelling of your name Kodos !

  4. #44
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Shaggie View Post
    I can't agree with this. Human beings are all equal.
    Why? By what metric? If we call everyone and everything beautiful, then we blind ourselves to ugliness. If we call everyone and everything good, then we blind ourselves to evil. All things are not equal. Some things are better than other things. What metric can you have to judge people where you can conclude that Carl Sagan and Adolf Hitler were equal as human beings? And if you say that you do not judge people, then you're just full of shit because everyone judges everyone. That's why we would give a trusted friend a large sum of money as a loan, but not a random stranger. We have judged the former to be trustworthy while the latter is an unknown quantity.

    The famous and infamous people used in your stament. Doesn't make them any more or less equal than anyone else because anyone can do what these people heve done regaurdless of opportunity or treatment.
    So? Potential is not fact. I have the ability to murder people. Or to rape people. I am not a murderer and I am not a rapist. The fact that anyone could in theory have done what Hitler or Sagan did does not mean they did, in fact, do what Hitler or Sagan did. Anyone can potentially do just about anything.

    Advantaged or humble beginings or treatment by law or classifaction doesn't make anyone greater or lesser than anyone else.
    When did I say it did?

    What one does with their lives doesn't define equality either.
    Yes, yes it does.

    Despite our orgins we're all capable aspiring to the same heights just as easily of sinking to the same depths. You wouldn't say a woman is inferior to a man just because of sex would you?
    Are you really telling me that you cannot see a difference between judging a person based on their beliefs and actions and judging a person based on their sex? Really?

    Or indiginous people are not equal to those of us that are more industrious?
    See above.

    You can not because they can do the same things as any of us. Women have proven that they are equal to men in every way save for gender itself & since it takes both sexes to create new life we're equal there as well.
    Ther is a difference between not having a Y chromosome and killing six million human beings. If you cannot figure that out, I don't know what to say.

    No industrious or 'modern' person without proper training could survive in a the tribal world of indiginous people without learnig how they live first and advantages of industrialization or technology can be taught to minds of a tribal person because their minds are no less bright as our own.
    When did I ever say that pre-industrial peoples are stupid?

    Again, I can not agree. Wealth or race doesn't exempt any human being for the accountablity of their actions.
    Welcome to Earth, I can see you are new here. I hope you enjoy your stay, but you probably won't. This is a pretty awful place.

    However, if society allows them to get away with detrimental actions, then society should be held accountable for allowing to do get away with it in the 1st place. We let people who assume the roles of authority through race, class, religion, law & wealth get away with things they shouldn't becaue we've been convinced that they are our superiors. This is something the whole of society is being held accountable for all the time.
    If you think society is held accountable for patriarchy, white hegemony, cissexism, or any other form of dominance in the kyriarchy (a term I normally loathe but is apt here) then I don't know what to say.

    I agree with you but, if these 'modern Nazis' are to be held responsible for their actions then, it's the duty of the American & Israeli people to do something to prevent them from getting away with what they're doing instead of waiting for someone 'greater' than ourselves to. (See my statement above.)
    And that will never happen because most Americans and Iraeli's agree with it.

    Sure, things are really fucked up in this country right now. Because, as I said, thoughts are changing man! The people in this country are like a lethargic giant that's slowly awakening from a bad dream.
    Citation needed. America is not a sleeping giant. It's a morbidly obese madman who has just had a massive heartattack and decided that the best way to prevent another heart attack is by eating as many cheeseburgers as he can, as fast as he can.

    My meaning is, in time...probally sooner than any of think...the way things are done around the world will change because people are tired of the way are now. When the Roman empire fell, it was the people rising up against what they thought was a corrupt government that caused it.
    You have no idea why the Roman Empire fell, do you? That statement is so hilariously wrong I don't even know how to begin to address it.

    Happens all the time. As we grow collectively in our humanity, old and obsolete ideas on how we govern & treat one another change. This process can't happen overnight. There are still a lot of people who still cling to old and outdated ideas, but the majority of these people will die (of old age) along with their ideas.
    Yeah! It's not like women are still second rate citizens - at best - in most places on Earth. Or that homosexuals are still seen as less-than-people by most Humans. Or like most humans believe that bronze age myths are the best guides for life and morality in 2011 CE.

    Oh. Wait. They do. Because you're so wrong it hurts.

    Wouldn't the eventual justice of such a murder condem him to death in order to safegaurd humanity from further predation? I don't think he should've been assassinated in the night. To me, this action was just as evil as his own & given the scopes of his crimes...I feel that he should have been captured & then executed for those crimes. To just go in guns blazing & killing others (some who may have been innocent) just to kill him makes the US no less a terrorist than he was.
    Civilized humans don't execute people.

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  5. #45
    999 Knights Member Gedeon's Avatar
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    Civilized humans don't execute people.
    I strongly disagree.
    Problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by GunZet View Post
    Mmm, yes, considering he's Serbian, he might.... overwork the ladies. Don't need that.

  6. #46
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Same. Civilized is a strongly subjective term anyway.

  7. #47
    Lord of Death jubeh's Avatar
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    Why

  8. #48
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    I'm just waiting for Kodos to defend his point before I say why, since he never gave reasons for it to begin with, so there is nothing for me to specifically refute. But I already know this is ENTIRELY a matter of opinion so I wont' go into it if he doesn't.

  9. #49
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Because executing criminals demonstrably has no effect in lowering crime rates, demonstrably has led tot he murder of many innocent people, creates a culture in which vengeance is seen as an adequate substitute for justice, and in no way contributes to justice? What does murdering criminals accomplish? What is accomplished in practical or moral terms by executing a criminal as opposed to keeping them in prison forever?

    Also it's not like the purpose of justice is to protect the innocent and rehabilitate the guilty. It's to punish, amirite?

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  10. #50
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos View Post
    What is accomplished in practical or moral terms by executing a criminal as opposed to keeping them in prison forever?
    Eliminating a threat to our society without having to cough up tax dollars to support a felon for the rest of their life. We essentially provide for them from food to clothes to facilities. We don't do that for all of our upstanding citizens. We don't do that for our cops, who regularly give their lives undoing the damage of criminals. So why are we responsible for the people who hurt us? Especially people we've never met, therefore could have done nothing to provoke their criminal acts?

    It also demotes amoral activity, just as putting them in jail does. It seems strange to fight for the humanity of a person who has deliberately committed an inhumane act. Why should we try to redeem these people?

    Also it's not like the purpose of justice is to protect the innocent and rehabilitate the guilty. It's to punish, amirite?
    Actually, yes. The purpose of justice is to punish. Our court system exists to determine the degree and necessity of punishments. In truth, punishment and rehabilitation are not so far apart. Punishment is also a conditioning method. And I'm usually one to give a person the benefit of the doubt, but to believe we can rehabilitate those who are deemed so lethal and dangerous to warrant execution is a little lofty, even for me. Besides, you have to do quite a bit in America to be sentenced to death. So it's not like we're just picking off any 'ol criminals. And it's not like they're blindsided by it, either. Earning yourself a death sentence has to be a pretty deliberate thing. That's not to say everyone who has been sentenced to death was sentenced fairly. Just saying the death sentence itself is neither unfair or illogical.

    And I don't see how eliminating a lethal criminal is //not// protecting the innocent. Criminals, even in jail, are the burden of the innocent. We are paying our criminals for hurting us. What kind of justice is that? I also don't see how a life sentence is any more effective than a death sentence.
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 09-03-2011 at 10:05 PM.

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