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Thread: The Crime Thread - Cause, Effect, Sentencing, Empathy

  1. #31
    Senior Member Hamachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon_Barbarian View Post
    Mmmm. Just like how some people in China think Mao was a pretty OK guy.
    That's kinda because all the people who didn't got shot.

  2. #32
    Fifty Fifty Member Bacon_Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamachi View Post
    That's kinda because all the people who didn't got shot.
    That's sort of the whole point.
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  3. #33
    Devilish Member Black_Shaggie's Avatar
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    You guys are all correct & all wrong at the same time.
    I think Gedeon broke this this down best when he said something to the effect of "...two sides of the same coin."
    A hero or villian is named such by the people they defend & the people they attack...with force or political ideology. Do I sympathize with what Osama Bin Laden and his alledged terroist cell, the Taliban alegedly did? No. I'm American & Americans died as a result. Would I take up arms & go to the Middle East & try to force my way of life on the people who live there? No. But, seeing as this has been the case in the Middle East for years...poltical leaders trying make the people there submit to one form of government or another when they (the people) allready have a way of life that works for them. Someone else said something about 'Devine Right' earlier. This is also a determining factor when you consider if a person is a hero or a villian. If you're a beliver in a cause, a idea, a theology...anything, you'd do anything to uphold that belief. Even commit murder in the name of that belief. I am referring to TRUE belivers. Not the casual one that most people are.

    My father was part of the Black Panther movent here in the US during the 70s. He was seriouss about all of that shit & it tore my family apart. I can remember him teaching me things as a child that I had no reason to know & at the time, he was MY hero. The government (at the time) consdiered him a terrorist.Thankfully, his insitance on me learning martial arts & the taoist philosophies at the core of most martial arts influenced me into a peaceful way of thinking. But the reality is he was just a man with the conviction to fight to uphold the ideal (for right or for wrong) in what he believed in. Now that I am a man, I don't believe in much that he does. I do, however believe that people who feel that they are justified in their actions are capable of doing just about anything to prove them right.

  4. #34
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    The thing about the Middle East is that "their way of life" was extremely self-destructive and did not actually work for them. I don't mean their culture, I mean the religious wars, all of the cultural demographics at odds with each other and the dictatorships. Now, shoving democracy down their throats, especially the way America went about it, wasn't the best idea, but admittedly a step up from what they had.

    And "hero" can't be defined by philosophical rules, like you are attempting to do. Heroism is a concept conceived entirely by society. Whether a person is a hero or not is based entirely on the perception of others. And this perception is based primarily on whether or not said person has helped the people or a cause the people care about, and to what extent. This exists on an ideological level, too, such as philosophers who touch their readers. In other words, there is no right or wrong way to be a "hero", as it's based on whether or not people appreciate your actions.

    The argument here is not whether or not Osama can be perceived as a hero, but rather if he WAS a hero. And he wasn't, because his actions were reckless and helped nobody.
    Last edited by CypressDahlia; 09-02-2011 at 07:12 AM.

  5. #35
    Devilish Member Black_Shaggie's Avatar
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    I do see your point Cypress D, I do. But doesn't seem to make sense that the person who sees himself as a hero is powered by the convictions of what they believe to do is right? That's all I'm saying of Osama. He believed he was doing what was right for his people (if he truly commited this act at all). Now, he did go about it in a really f'd up way. I may have went a bit too far with my philosophy of what defines a hero, but society's perception isn't the only thing that defines what makes one a hero. somtimes heros do things that society thinks is wrong at the time, but winds up being exactly what it needs to better itself. Whether they appreciate the actions of the hero or not.

    But you are right. His actions were indeed reckless & caused more problems then aid. But who's to say that culterally (thanks for the correction here) that these people don't have the right to live the way they do despite all of the religious wars waged? It may not be something we like or understand, but what right do we have to step in and intervine?

  6. #36
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Well, its because it's a religious war. It's not something they want, but something ordained by their religion. They don't want to fight, but under the circumstances there is inevitable fighting. It's not a want, it's a must. So if we were to stop these religious wars, we're not taking //away// from anything but turmoil and senseless killing. In fact, each of the religious factions are also fighting for peace. We're working toward the same ends, but just through different means. Whereas we want peace through coexistence, they want peace through eradication of their opposites as their religion won't allow coexistence. Naturally, the latter is somewhat difficult to overlook as it entails the killing of many innocent people. It's not that we fail to understand them. We acknowledge their rationale, we just can't condone what acting on that rationale entails. Likewise, whether or not I understand the mentality of a serial killer, I cannot condone what acting on that mentality entails.

    And a hero is defined by the views of society. You can see yourself as a hero, but that's about as worthless as seeing yourself as a ladies' man when your track record with women is less than glorious. Or seeing yourself as a saint even though you're a criminal. Ultimately, what decides these things is how our actions affect other people.

  7. #37
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
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    The newscaster says the enemy's among us
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    The Daily Mail says the enemy's among us,
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  8. #38
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Heroism is a concept conceived entirely by society.
    Then Osama is a hero for his society and a monster for USA's society.

    Again, Hero and Monster only depend from the cultural glass you see it, and obviously by the behavior of Osama, I can say he was no psychopath but rather idealist, as Delph has said.

  9. #39
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Shaggie View Post
    You guys are all correct & all wrong at the same time.
    I think Gedeon broke this this down best when he said something to the effect of "...two sides of the same coin."
    A hero or villian is named such by the people they defend & the people they attack...with force or political ideology.
    Moral relativism has been refuted. Like, literally. I'm not being hyperbolic. If you are a moral relativist you are wrong. This is not a matter of debate. If there is such a thing as morality, then it is independent of culture. If it is morally wrong to have sex with a person without that person's consent, then it is always morally wrong to do so. A culture arguing that there are times when you can have sex without consent would be wrong. Period.

    Do I sympathize with what Osama Bin Laden and his alledged terroist cell, the Taliban alegedly did? No. I'm American & Americans died as a result.
    So? I support killing Americans in context. If an American tries to rape or kill or otherwise harm a foreigner, and the only way that foreigner can defend themselves is with lethal force, I absolutely 100% condone the killing of an American. Why should you care that Americans died, as opposed to any other human? Are Americans more important than Ukrainians? Filipinos? Mexicans? Japanese? Chinese? Iranians? What nationalities are inferior to Americans, and why? And if it's not an issue of nationality, why does your being American or the victims of 9/11 being (mostly) American matter?

    Would I take up arms & go to the Middle East & try to force my way of life on the people who live there? No.
    Why not? That's part of American culture. Imperialism is the American way of life and has been since before America was even America. This nation was founded on and is based around genocide and cultural hegemony.

    But, seeing as this has been the case in the Middle East for years...poltical leaders trying make the people there submit to one form of government or another when they (the people) allready have a way of life that works for them. Someone else said something about 'Devine Right' earlier. This is also a determining factor when you consider if a person is a hero or a villian. If you're a beliver in a cause, a idea, a theology...anything, you'd do anything to uphold that belief. Even commit murder in the name of that belief. I am referring to TRUE belivers. Not the casual one that most people are.
    So if I believe very strongly that I have a divine right to all that I desire, you would see me as morally justified if I proceeded to rape all women I found attractive and steal all things I found desirable? So far all you are saying is that "people who think they are right, think they are right." which besides being tautological is totally irrelevant.

    My father was part of the Black Panther movent here in the US during the 70s. He was seriouss about all of that shit & it tore my family apart. I can remember him teaching me things as a child that I had no reason to know & at the time, he was MY hero. The government (at the time) consdiered him a terrorist.Thankfully, his insitance on me learning martial arts & the taoist philosophies at the core of most martial arts influenced me into a peaceful way of thinking. But the reality is he was just a man with the conviction to fight to uphold the ideal (for right or for wrong) in what he believed in. Now that I am a man, I don't believe in much that he does. I do, however believe that people who feel that they are justified in their actions are capable of doing just about anything to prove them right.
    And? No one has contested that people will fight and die for what they believe in, or that different people will see things differently. That's not the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Shaggie View Post
    I do see your point Cypress D, I do. But doesn't seem to make sense that the person who sees himself as a hero is powered by the convictions of what they believe to do is right? That's all I'm saying of Osama. He believed he was doing what was right for his people (if he truly commited this act at all). Now, he did go about it in a really f'd up way. I may have went a bit too far with my philosophy of what defines a hero, but society's perception isn't the only thing that defines what makes one a hero. somtimes heros do things that society thinks is wrong at the time, but winds up being exactly what it needs to better itself. Whether they appreciate the actions of the hero or not.

    But you are right. His actions were indeed reckless & caused more problems then aid. But who's to say that culterally (thanks for the correction here) that these people don't have the right to live the way they do despite all of the religious wars waged? It may not be something we like or understand, but what right do we have to step in and intervine?
    See my point about cultural relativism. It's demonstrably false. If there is no morality, then we are free to do as we wish according to our own personal moral codes. If there is morality, then you'll have to argue for a morality that doesn't involve stepping in to stop gross acts of immorality.

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  10. #40
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    Then Osama is a hero for his society...
    Hardly. That was the point. Hardly.

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