Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 100

Thread: The Crime Thread - Cause, Effect, Sentencing, Empathy

  1. #11
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,335
    Cyp, standard warfare rules in the Enlightenment - well, there weren't any. Consequently soldiers would frequently burn villages and rape women. It's bloody hard to find hard evidence of the horrors of a war that's been thought of as justified and noble for the past 300 years (I agree that it was, but still, war), so no, I don't have hard evidence, but the precedents exist to show that war was significantly more horrible back then than it is now, and I don't think the Founding Fathers should be exempt from the logical assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia
    They were fighting for a cause supported by a large backing of the oppressed, in the immediate place that it affected.
    How exactly do you think terrorist groups find their recruits? Bin Laden wasn't circle-jerking in a cave with a couple of stoned friends and making preparatory sketches for 9/11 as part of his latest zany weed-fuelled scheme. The history of Western injustices against the Middle East is long, illustrious, and at times reads like the Nuremberg Trials in terms of suspicious war activities. Attacking your supposed oppressors is hardly the most illogical thing to do given the circumstances.

    Like I've said numerous times, I don't agree with Bin Laden's actions either. I just believe that demonising the man for those actions is ridiculous, when if you shared the same ideals as him you'd recognise his motives as both deeply human and completely logical. Bin Laden was not a psychopath; he was an idealist. Most people are not willing to go that far to try and (as they see it) improve the world and pursue justice. I may not be a Christian, but there's a nice quote. "Hate the sin, not the sinner." Perhaps you've heard of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn
    You forgot your F in Modesty.

  2. #12
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphinus View Post
    Consequently soldiers would frequently burn villages and rape women.
    Yes, but that's VERY different from suggesting that the founding fathers //wanted// them to do this. When you put guns in the hands of thousands of people and leave them to their own devices, it's very hard to control what happens. I'm pretty sure Washington didn't stand there going "Hey, you forgot to rape this one". I mean, look at the War on Terror. Our soldiers did some fucked up shit, but I know Bush wasn't standing around telling them to do it. That's very different from the Bin Laden situation, where the destruction of innocent lives was organized and deliberate.

    How exactly do you think terrorist groups find their recruits?
    First of all, terrorists hardly represent the majority of people. And, even if people shared Bin Laden's fundamental beliefs, obviously they don't condone his methods, otherwise the Middle East would be a region entirely populated by suicide bombers.

    ...if you shared the same ideals as him you'd recognise his motives as both deeply human and completely logical.
    So you're saying if I supported Bin Laden, I would support him... Yeah, I get that. But what's your point? I understand that if I agree with someone, I would agree with them...but I don't agree with Bin Laden, so yeah...

    Bin Laden was not a psychopath; he was an idealist.
    Naw, he was a psychopath. He was a psychopath with ideals.

    "Hate the sin, not the sinner."
    Yes, because the planes crash themselves.

  3. #13
    Bad Enough Dude to Rescue the President Kodos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,869
    I don't have the time or energy atm to put out a very big and well thought out post, Del, but I will say this. I think the analogy of offering money to a homeless man who uses it to buy heroin is flawed. I think a better analogy would be if I was on a boat and a man was suddenly stricken with serious illness and when the call went out "is there a doctor on board?!" I said yes and proceeded to, through inexperience and lack of skill, kill the man.

    Bin Laden and other terrorists are men who claim to have the answers for the very real and very serious problems that plague their societies. As community leaders and respected authorities they are absolutely expected to do the best research they can. An intellectual failure to realize that terrorism does not work absolutely becomes a moral failure.

    As for whether or not Bin Laden was a psychopath, I think so. I don't think that means he wasn't an idealist. The Nazi party and the Christian Right in America have shown us time and time again that psychopathy and idealism quite often go hand in hand.

    I agree ultimately, though, that Americans are absolutely not allowed to demonize Bin Laden the way we do. We celebrate as heroes men far worse than he was, and the way we celebrated his death was barbaric and quite literally something out of the pages of goddamn Roman history. I also feel that if we Americans spent less time demonizing terrorists and more time understanding why these men are driven to do what they do, that real progress and improvement would be much more likely.

    Take the Iraqi Insurgency. They have the moral right to resist the American invaders, and to that end I support them. On the other hand, many, if not most/all, of them seek to replace the brutal American occupation with a Islamic theocracy that would be, at best, slightly better and, at worst, much worse. Thus I find myself both condemning and supporting them. It's hard, and like a lot of moral issues, there is no easy answer. At the very least I can say that I strongly condemn violence against civilians and that I strongly sympathize with the plight of the Iraqi people. This is even more true in the case of Palestine and the barbaric Israeli campaign of genocide.

    All that said? http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bin-laden-obit.php

    Do you like big boobs? Dragons? Ninja? Martial arts? Wizards? Then click here and make all your wildest dreams come true!!

  4. #14
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,335
    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Yes, but that's VERY different from suggesting that the founding fathers //wanted// them to do this... That's very different from the Bin Laden situation, where the destruction of innocent lives was organized and deliberate.
    The Founding Fathers were smart men. I'm sure they knew that raping and pillaging were going to be a consequence of their actions, even if they didn't directly order it. We even have a criminal offence for this: Criminal Negligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    First of all, terrorists hardly represent the majority of people. And, even if people shared Bin Laden's fundamental beliefs, obviously they don't condone his methods, otherwise the Middle East would be a region entirely populated by suicide bombers.
    Have you ever heard of an IAD? I hear the locals in the Middle East are fond of giving them as little treats to western soldiers. Also, all you're pointing out is that the founding fathers were more popular than Bin Laden. If popularity is the measure of a valid argument - oh wait, it's not. Would it be okay for suicide bombing to go ahead if most people in the middle east were for it? Because that seems to me to be what your argument implies.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    So you're saying if I supported Bin Laden, I would support him... Yeah, I get that. But what's your point? I understand that if I agree with someone, I would agree with them...but I don't agree with Bin Laden, so yeah...
    Moral relativism, dood. Just proving that Bin Laden was of sane mind and had a reasonable personality, which was the argument against demonising him in my original post, if you recall. Just because he was a member of a shitty religion, that doesn't make him inherently a flawed person, and like I also said in my original post, his psychology and actions seem to be remarkably similar to dozens of other revolutionaries/insurgents/rebels of history. What you ought be criticising are his dangerous ideals; attacking the man himself distracts us from the more important task of identifying the problems with radical Islam and in the middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Naw, he was a psychopath. He was a psychopath with ideals.
    Given I probably know a lot more about that particular personality disorder than you, I'm going to leave this as: you're wrong. Psychopaths do not have ideals aside from 'lol got mine'. And Bin Laden wouldn't personally benefit from planning a major terror attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by CypressDahlia View Post
    Yes, because the planes crash themselves.
    Yes, because 'crashing the planes' totally doesn't come under the 'sin' part.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodos
    I think the analogy of offering money to a homeless man who uses it to buy heroin is flawed.
    It was; feel free to insert your own analogy.
    Last edited by Delphinus; 08-24-2011 at 08:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn
    You forgot your F in Modesty.

  5. #15
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Delphinus View Post
    I'm sure they knew that raping and pillaging were going to be a consequence of their actions, even if they didn't directly order it.
    Okay, now that's just stupid. You're blaming people for something entirely out of their control. And I'm sure taking up arms was a //last resort// anyway, so it's not like other methods weren't practiced beforehand. Sometimes you have to go to war, and war is hard to contain and micro-manage, especially, you know, in the 1700's.

    Would it be okay for suicide bombing to go ahead if most people in the middle east were for it? Because that seems to me to be what your argument implies.
    Not at all. I'm just refuting your point that Bin Laden was acting on the best interests of the people, which is inherently linked to popularity. Your own fallacy.

    Just proving that Bin Laden was of sane mind and had a reasonable personality...
    I don't disagree. I don't demonize him for what he believed, I demonize him for what he did.

    I'm going to leave this as: you're wrong.
    Compelling argument.

    Yes, because 'crashing the planes' totally doesn't come under the 'sin' part.
    You missed the point. "Sin" doesn't materialize unless a sinner commits it. So blaming the act is inherently flawed as the act doesn't do harm without an actor.


    Also, I don't see why celebrating his death was barbaric. It's no more barbaric than the Jihad. And, frankly, it was extremely justified. If we're not supposed to be demonizing the draconian (and, TBH, insane) methods of terrorists, why should we demonize American citizens for celebrating a very justified execution? We should try to "understand" murderers of the innocent but demonize people who wanted to see a ruthless criminal killed? That's totally backwards.

  6. #16
    Super Senior Member Delphinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,335
    ^ Or we could just not demonise anyone? More detailed post in the morning, it's late and I did a lot today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenn
    You forgot your F in Modesty.

  7. #17
    Super Senior Member CypressDahlia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,317
    No rush. And, relevant because I live in DC, also...yeah...just watch:



    I lol'd. His first assumption was that it was a terrorist attack.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Hamachi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    In your heart
    Posts
    569
    Good intentions do not a hero make. If you've screwed over other people's lives without their permission it doesn't matter how well-meant you were.

  9. #19
    Devilish Member Slurpee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    703
    :l
    I can totally see where you're coming from Del but for some of us it is so hard to see these people as human. Yesterday I saw the documentary One Day in September about the terrorist attack on the Olympics in the late 70's . They terrorists were apparently trying to help the Palestinian cause. I have no idea what helped their cause come out of it. Frankly, I don't even know what the cause is. They seem so evil to me, how can anyone understand your point of view? When people try to do "The means justify the ends" people loose their sight of what is right, and then Osama Bin Laden happens.

  10. #20
    999 Knights Member Gedeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Boljevci, Serbia
    Posts
    1,616
    I think that (almost) no man is a complete, real, honest to goodness hero. Yeah we'r talking that Bin Laden had this ideology and he wanted better life for his people. But so many bad thing's were did for the same excuse. I can't help but thinking that every hero everywhere is, really, doing something for himself. More power, more money, fame(infamy)... So i can't say that Bin Laden is a monster. He's a man doing bad stuff to get what he wants( as same as Bush, B.Tadic, Miloshevic, Ghenghis Khan, Insert all other leaders here) Yeah i know that there are people who fight for the people, but most of them fight for whats best for them. The reason why some people are demonized is cause the opposing faction is making them look like that. But the people that were under their care idolized them. And no i don't think the things Bin Laden did were good, but heck why should he care.He though it was for something good and something he belived in, AND on the + side he got money, villas, and.....how many wives? Its like this people with power will always get corrupted, sooner or later. And if so, if Bin laden is a monster every other Leader that waged war, or did harm to a 2 party is one also. In my humble (and somewhat unsure) opinion.
    Problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by GunZet View Post
    Mmm, yes, considering he's Serbian, he might.... overwork the ladies. Don't need that.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •