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Thread: baka-neko art thread :D

  1. #61
    One Thousand Member toast's Avatar
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    Hey there (: I understand you're probably done, but I wanna leave a critique. First, I'll say what I like about the image. The soft colors, and the color choices work well with the style you're trying to achieve. This is for a moe contest, anyway, so you do a good job with making that clear in your piece. The gestures and expression are also quite cute, which is good.

    Now about the composition. The piece has a LOT of empty space that doesn't add anything to the piece, which can easily be fixed with cropping. Here, I cropped it quickly in paint for you to give you an example:

    SPOILER! :


    Do you see how much more focused that is? In the original drawing, my eyes started to wander around the image, and didn't really focus in on the subject. This time, all my focus is on the girl and the cat-cloud-thingy.

    The extremely simplistic background really doesn't add anything to the piece, other than establishing that it's really sunny outside and that she's in water. The water looks very Photoshop 5.0, as it seems like it took you 2 minutes to whip up. You didn't do anything to the sky, either, which doesn't make sense because the sky isn't that bright. It's as if you either wanted to do something simplistic and overdid it, or got lazy and decided to whip up a boring background.

    Another thing is the character in correlation with the background. The background suggests that it's very sunny outside (I'm guessing, because it's all goddamn white!). However, there is absolutely no shading on the character. This doesn't make sense, as it's a general rule that sunlike causes harsh shades. The veeeery light skin tone really takes away contrast between her and the background, as well. This is really important in the subject of a piece of art. I know you're trying to express the fact that everything is bright and sparkly, but it really washes the character out and makes the piece feel even more empty. You can darken her skin color as a whole if you want, but what you really need to do is add harsher, more defined shading. Why harsher shading? Because that is what happens when you are outside, during a really sunny, clear day. Here are some photo references so you can get an idea of how to shade this. I'll post mostly light people, in case you want to keep the light skin tone, but I'll throw in tan people as well:

    SPOILER! :

    ^^ small, but the female has really light skin that may be what you're looking for, so you can resize it in a seperate program to get a better look
    SPOILER! :


    SPOILER! :


    SPOILER! :


    Another thing about the shading is that you seem to forget that light reflects off objects. Realistically, the blue in the water would reflect onto the character. Animu example, since you can't seem to get enough of animu:

    SPOILER! :


    You get the idea. And since you're probably thinking, "but this is manga styled, it's suppose to have simplistic shading like this!". Yes, manga art tends to have simplistic shading, but not so simplistic to wear it ignores shading rules. Take a look through these pictures:
    https://www.google.com/search?tbm=is....0.bBk9b43M0CA

    Now onto the lineart. I see what you're trying to do with the lineart, and I respect that, but it doesn't work well at all with the colors and you seem to exaggerate the brightness effect on the lineart too much. The character is already extremely light, and without the lineart, she just gets lost in the extremely bright background you left. This type of brightness would only really make sense if there was a huge ass lamp surrounding her or something. So you should have done normal lineart, or thicker than normal with the parts in front of the background thinner (but not so thin to where it's disappeared).

    And now! Proportions. Since this is a stylized piece, I can't nit pick too much. But I will say that the left leg is very awkwardley shaped, almost like it's bent back despite the leg stepping in. Look at how your own leg bends when doing that same pose. Also, with the right leg (the one bent up), the foot looks like it's floating behind an amputated leg or something. You should have drawn the calf area. Also, by the way you shaded the right leg's knee, it suggests that the knee is pointing down. However, that doesn't make sense since the height of the thigh/knee means it's pointing upwards.

    Another thing, the left boob is drawn bigger than the right (unless you purposely want her to have asymmetrical boobies), and it's suppose to be a bit higher than the other since the raised arm is moving up the left side of her body including the boob. Also you put the thumb on the wrong side on the right hand.

    One last thing and I'll leave this drawing alone. Her bra doesn't make sense at all. It seems like you drew it normally, but then scribbled in a line and decided that means her bra came undone. Realistically, the bra wouldn't stay put like that. It would be be all bent and moving and shit. Here, I doodled an example:
    SPOILER! :

    Obviously don't trace it or anything, I'm just showing you what I'm talking about

    Now I have this to say. You were doing great with your realism. In fact, it looked 100% better than what you do now, and if you continued, you could have been really beast at art. Switching to such an extremely simple style really seemed to backtrack your progress though, as you seemed to throw away all knowledge of shading, anatomy, etc, just so you can achieve a specific style millions of people do. This is not good for someone who wants to improve in art. I really suggest you try realism again, and get into learning basic anatomy and proportions as a whole. You can still do the anime stuff on the side, but if you're really serious, you need to learn to understand shapes, shading, movement, contrast, etc. If you can't do this, what makes you think you'll be able to improve any further?

    PS. okay okay one last thing I noticed, you shouldn't have added lineart to the water splashing up onto her foot. It doesn't make sense since the rest of the water is so simple.

  2. #62
    @toast:

    Thanks for this very detailed critique As you guessed I'm not updating this drawing anymore (I already sent my entry, and I'm very lazy ) but your critique is very interesting and will help me for my further drawings...

    About my art style, most of my friends tell me the same thing ; that I was doing far better before with my realistic drawings... It's is true that I have left this style for years, but I'm planning to return to it in a near futur, actually I'm planning in coding a visual novel, that would include realistic illustrations, I was planning this project for a long time, but I'm working on other things right now -.- I just need a little time, and a lot of motivation My ultimate goal is to be able to draw in the 2 styles with the same ease, as I like the 2 styles the same way ^^
    My DeviantArt: link
    My website: link

  3. #63
    Zeta Members ram's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say those past drawings are 100% better since the only things I saw are faces and not bodies, people here are always into realism but as long as you know how muscles work and how bones and joints are, You don't need anything else from it if you really want anime style.

    I have to agree on the whole shadow thing but there are lots of ways to understand light source than just draw multiple realistic.
    for me I learned on 3d softwares
    The light that you should have in that drawing is ambient and parallel light(also called as distant light)
    you don't have to think to much for ambient light but the distant light seemed not that defined, unless the ambient light is much stronger.
    This is also possible if it's cloudy in the sky(but I guess you didn't draw any clouds nor shadows of clouds in the water so I have to agree that you were wrong on your drawing)

    I'd say go back to realism but just go study muscles and joints and bones then you can go back to these types of styles.

  4. #64
    One Thousand Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    here are always into realism but as long as you know how muscles work and how bones and joints are, You don't need anything else from it if you really want anime style.
    ...which you won't ever fully understand unless you learn about muscles, bones, and joints realistically. You can't understand how the human body moves, how the body changes, etc, unless you actually, i dont know, STUDY it. If an artist is content with having his knowledge of art stop at simple, unrealistic cartoon bodies, then what is the point of trying to improve? What is the point of making art?

    I have to agree on the whole shadow thing but there are lots of ways to understand light source than just draw multiple realistic.
    for me I learned on 3d softwares
    Sure, you can use 3d software to learn how light interacts with objects on an extremely basic level, but I don't understand why you would go through all that when you could look up photos? That software won't show you how different skintones react in light, either.

    It's okay to draw anime, and I'm not asking you to start drawing shit like this (although it'd be awesome if you did):

    SPOILER! :


    But at least learn to understand objects and humans realistically, then you will truly improve and your art style will develop into something unique.

  5. #65
    Zeta Members ram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    ...which you won't ever fully understand unless you learn about muscles, bones, and joints realistically. You can't understand how the human body moves, how the body changes, etc, unless you actually, i dont know, STUDY it. If an artist is content with having his knowledge of art stop at simple, unrealistic cartoon bodies, then what is the point of trying to improve? What is the point of making art?
    Once you understand about drawing complex backgrounds, cities, buildings, satallites and some sofas for your character to sit on, you'll understand that humans are just objects.. you can waste all your time with all these things once you atleast get better on drawing those water waves and shadow of clouds.

    you want this stupid cat to keep improving on human anatomy and do this and that which I know he/she(I still don't know your gender baka neko) would study years and years doing only that, but there's a bigger world out there than just human body.



    Sure, you can use 3d software to learn how light interacts with objects on an extremely basic level, but I don't understand why you would go through all that when you could look up photos? That software won't show you how different skintones react in light, either.
    We manipulate where we want to the light to go in 3d softwares, no matter what it is... ambient or parallel or spot, it's not just basic lights
    once you see how light and things move, and you'll understand more about it, if your the one who's really the one manipulating the light..

    when you want some guy to just go and copy photo reference, what does he get at the end of the day? a finished copy of some photo,
    and nothing else and maybe he would think he's improving but really he's not, he might stick to copying photo reference for the rest of his life.

    It's okay to draw anime, and I'm not asking you to start drawing shit like this (although it'd be awesome if you did):

    SPOILER! :


    But at least learn to understand objects and humans realistically, then you will truly improve and your art style will develop into something unique.
    again there's a far bigger world out there, now you might say, he can study backgrounds and while studying anatomy, you can but it's not good to focus on just humans and explore too many things that you don't know if it's even worth something

    erd:
    here's a better example
    SPOILER! :
    Last edited by ram; 06-19-2012 at 03:58 AM. Reason: I shouldn't have spammed my art

  6. #66
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    Once you understand about drawing complex backgrounds, cities, buildings, satallites and some sofas for your character to sit on, you'll understand that humans are just objects.
    The voice of the master? How much you know about cities? Architecture? Construction of spaces? or even you know something about furniture design? At least Banhaus should be the first name you should recognize for modern furniture design. At least Alberti is the first name you should know about architecture as design. And I can bet my ass that you don't know none of those name's which are really important for the subjects you are talking with such confidence.

    You are also simplifying your argument at saying that ones you understand just about complex background and such the human body isn o different. This is a big mistake, as both subjects have different deepness. The human body as the architecture and design, are indeed complex, but in different manners, and ones you understand those (which is made by drawing realistic pictures), it comes to deepness and layers. Deepness as how much you can get inside those subjects and their stylizations, and layers, on how much of those elements can be layered on the product. And even more, you face with the problems of finishing of the piece, which makes it even more tangling as you must state a communication, a manipulative or provocative feeling to the viewer. So no, just be understanding something by its complexity, doesn't grant you the skills needed to do everything. And neither understanding one thing complexity will give you the skills for every subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    you can waste all your time with all these things once you atleast get better on drawing those water waves and shadow of clouds.
    I don't even understand what you are tying to say. But as I can tell, if you think its a waste of time to try to improve, then I guess there is no point in making critique art threads (read the OP).

    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    you want this stupid cat to keep improving on human anatomy and do this and that which I know he/she(I still don't know your gender baka neko) would study years and years doing only that, but there's a bigger world out there than just human body.
    So are you insulting the person who did this thread and you look to defend from a critique he/she asked? That's weird. And yes I know baka neko means "stupid cat", but there is a difference between saying "You want "Stupid Cat" to keep..." to say "You want THIS stupid cat". Think about it.

    She wants critiques and those were granted. And yes, its takes years of patience and hard work, like most things in life, and the fantastic thing on art is that you can always keep learning if you want, which makes its very entertaining for the mind.

    Also, when you talk about that bigger world outside, are you talking about a moe world? I guess your bigger world is now a little narrow for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    We manipulate where we want to the light to go in 3d softwares, no matter what it is... ambient or parallel or spot, it's not just basic lights
    once you see how light and things move, and you'll understand more about it, if your the one who's really the one manipulating the light..
    3D softwares manipulate values. This makes it really hard for them to show how colors behave with different light intensities in real life, where you can see from greens to blues on the human skin. The big problem with 3D softwares is that they are very limited ones is about imitating real life colors facing different lights. And even so you can place those colors in a 3D model, it require you from taking those colors from real life, which makes them useless if you want them for reference, as you are already using real life as reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    when you want some guy to just go and copy photo reference, what does he get at the end of the day? a finished copy of some photo,
    and nothing else and maybe he would think he's improving but really he's not, he might stick to copying photo reference for the rest of his life.
    At the end of the day, that person have a final product made be his/her skills, patience and own ingenious. Also, lame question as I could ask the same for moe drawings:

    When you want some guy to just go and copy moe draws, what does he have at the end of the day? And nothing else and maybe he would think he's improving but really he' not, he might stick to copy moe drawing for the rest of his life.

    ^you see what I did there?

    And the funny thing, is that the person who copied things from life have even more to teach from us, than you.

    For the record, copying things from life is just a step from learning, a really important one that we are going to try to place in the new members as much as we can. Or at least the new members who want to get better.

    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    again there's a far bigger world out there, now you might say, he can study backgrounds and while studying anatomy, you can but it's not good to focus on just humans and explore too many things that you don't know if it's even worth something
    Hey ram, there is a far bigger world than moe stuffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    erd:
    here's a better example
    SPOILER! :
    Oh you tricky rat, you basically asked (before you edited) for people who could say the can also do that. And i guess you edited it, because you knew everyone would blow your ass. So I'm going to say it, I can do it and I can do it better.

    Also cheater, post the draw you did again. But thanks to Tzvety I have the link of your draw and I posted again in the spoiler. Isn't the internet jut amazing?

    Ram God of mediocrity?
    Last edited by ClockHand; 06-19-2012 at 04:58 AM.

  7. #67
    Zeta Members ram's Avatar
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    I really don't want to debate at you clock since you seem to be angry at my style in so many ways, you even made a anti-moe thread.

    debating at you might just lose my cool..
    I'm just trying to give this guy/girl a shortcut which I know you guys would take a lot of time.
    Also, baka-neko means stupid cat so I'm sure he understands what might people would call him, and your the last guy I want to hear that I sound rude.

  8. #68
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ram View Post
    Also, baka-neko means stupid cat so I'm sure he understands what might people would call him, and your the last guy I want to hear that I sound rude.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClockHand View Post
    And yes I know baka neko means "stupid cat", but there is a difference between saying "You want "Stupid Cat" to keep..." to say "You want THIS stupid cat". Think about it.
    You seems to be unable to read apparently.

  9. #69
    Zeta Members ram's Avatar
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    maybe.. I hate reading too many words that I just pass them in the eye if there's a lot of chuck of words.

    But before you say to me what sound rude atleast read your own post.

  10. #70
    Palindrome Member ClockHand's Avatar
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    Oh, but I intended to be rude against you, because to be fair, your statements were outrageous for anyone, and for those you deserve to be argumentative crushed. And I have no reason to not being rude against you for what you just said. So the biggest difference in here, is that I'm not defending you in any way, at the contrary I'm attacking you, and I have no intention to not being rude. Still trying to be polite in my rudeness.

    Also, try to read sometimes, you might learn something one day.

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