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That article is evidence on how "An Eye for and eye makes the whole world blind," is bullshit. She was well aware that her intent was to harm or kill, so she should serve life in prison or be convicted with the death penalty. Instead she gets a time out.
It's funny you say that, because it's totally untrue to the point of comedy. There is nothing in this article that suggests that revenge is a good substitute for justice. Just because justice has failed to be served here does not mean that the solution is a different type of injustice.Quote:
Originally Posted by PWhit
Or, rather than being vindictive and thinking with our guts instead of our brains, we could try and rehabilitate her and, should that prove impossible, keep her imprisoned for life. Murdering her does not undo her murder.Quote:
She was well aware that her intent was to harm or kill, so she should serve life in prison or be convicted with the death penalty. Instead she gets a time out.
Now that was hilarious. I fail to see how killing someone can be justified with letting a killer live. It isn't really revenge at all, it's a from of justice that had been used for a long time. Sure it doesn't suggest it, but it does make people think about it. Anyone can say "Oh I'm cured! I see God!" and kill again. Even if these people are rehab-ed that is an extremely slim chance and a lot of financing. Either life in prison or death penalty is necessary to keep them from being a potential or perceived threat. I personally favor death penalty because the chances are far too slim of rehabilitating someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodos
But letting a murderer live and risk him/her re-appearance in public would create more mistakes that cannot be undone. True it does not undo a murder but the entire process was premeditated. Usually people value their lives far too much to commit a crime that costs their life (if caught, detained and sentenced). Theoretically, people would be intimidated by example and stop themselves. Besides, if the person murdered someone there really is no need to treat them like an equal at all. They killed a civilian out of their emotional or idealogical appeal and should face much more consequence than a weekly therapy session.Quote:
Or, rather than being vindictive and thinking with our guts instead of our brains, we could try and rehabilitate her and, should that prove impossible, keep her imprisoned for life. Murdering her does not undo her murder.
In some societies it is considered justice to torture people. Killing people is not justice, it is revenge and, worse, it is barbarism.Quote:
Originally Posted by PWhit
Yes. And as thinking people it is our obligation to not let our emotions cloud our judgment.Quote:
Sure it doesn't suggest it, but it does make people think about it.
Which is why it is important our prison system work towards actually rehabilitating people, yes.Quote:
Anyone can say "Oh I'm cured! I see God!" and kill again.
Citation, please. Please show me studies that indicate sincere attempts at rehabilitation for most criminals would have poor success rates in comparison to the current rate of recidivism in most nations. Thank you.Quote:
Even if these people are rehab-ed that is an extremely slim chance
Sick and elderly people also cost a lot of money on society. Let's kill them too.Quote:
and a lot of financing.
The vast majority of Americans perceive Muslims as a threat. By your argument America is now obligated to hunt down and either kill or imprison for life every single Muslim.Quote:
Either life in prison or death penalty is necessary to keep them from being a potential or perceived threat.
But, wait! Every single person can potentially rape and kill! Welp, obviously the only option left is to kill and/or imprison every single human being.
Please show me studies that show this. Also tell me how murdering them is better than imprisoning them for life. What does murdering a murderer do besides answer one obscenity with another?Quote:
I personally favor death penalty because the chances are far too slim of rehabilitating someone.
Not every murder is premeditated, and not every premeditated murderer murders again.Quote:
But letting a murderer live and risk him/her re-appearance in public would create more mistakes that cannot be undone. True it does not undo a murder but the entire process was premeditated.
Yeah! This is why America and Texas in particular have the lowest rate of crime in the world. Oh, wait, they don't, and Texas, the state that murders the most prisoners, has one of the highest crime rates in the nation. Ooops!Quote:
Usually people value their lives far too much to commit a crime that costs their life (if caught, detained and sentenced).
Too bad every single piece of data available, without exception, shows that death penalties do not in any way contribute towards improving the crime rates. Too bad, also, that nations with rehabilitation oriented prison systems tend to have lower crime rates and recidivism rates than nations like America where our prisons are just glorified slave labor camps. Oops!Quote:
Theoretically, people would be intimidated by example and stop themselves.
Your right. When a car is bad it should be immediately destroyed. Why bother trying to repair it? And, yes, a weekly therapy session is totally what I - and others - am suggesting when I say that criminals should be rehabilitated - you're absolutely not strawmanning my position in any way, shape, or form.Quote:
Besides, if the person murdered someone there really is no need to treat them like an equal at all. They killed a civilian out of their emotional or idealogical appeal and should face much more consequence than a weekly therapy session.
It's not really revenge more than a permanent detachment from society. But hey, you are free to disagree with me here and we can part ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodos
I agree, I wasn't really saying that we should use emotional appeal to convict others. Usually judgement is done without emotional appeal.Quote:
Yes. And as thinking people it is our obligation to not let our emotions cloud our judgment.
We can rehabilitate thieves, drug addicts and maybe sex offenders. Murderers usually look for the thrill of murder and the sadism of killing someone in a cruel way. True, it can be classified as an addiction but why risk the many lives at stake if the therapy fails?Quote:
Which is why it is important our prison system work towards actually rehabilitating people, yes.
I'm feeling lazy. Here's wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Rehabilitation Numbers are pretty low...Quote:
Citation, please. Please show me studies that indicate sincere attempts at rehabilitation for most criminals would have poor success rates in comparison to the current rate of recidivism in most nations. Thank you.
Since I am so kill crazy, okay! And let's call it Obamacare, seeing as it does state to pull the plug on grandpa or anyone else over age of over 65. It's perfect! :)Quote:
Sick and elderly people also cost a lot of money on society. Let's kill them too.
Not every Muslim believes in suicidal bombing and killing in the name of their God. The bombers from 9/11 just so happened to be Muslims. It would be silly to imprison every single Muslim we find. We can still, however, ensure that those select few Taliban are detained. It may require some prejudicial behavioral patterns, but it may save more than thousands of lives.Quote:
The vast majority of Americans perceive Muslims as a threat. By your argument America is now obligated to hunt down and either kill or imprison for life every single Muslim.
But, wait! Every single person can potentially rape and kill! Welp, obviously the only option left is to kill and/or imprison every single human being.
On a side note if we caught them, would you rehabilitate these men? They are pretty sure there is a God out there that wants them to kill infidels. With what you are saying, you say that we can cure them.
Very debatable, I must say. That really is up to whoever is judging the person and whatever the circumstance is and what prison that hosts the felon. If the prison is a real second Aushwitz, sure why not? Life in prison. If it's not, then death penalty. I don't consider criminals really people than dangerous threats to society.Quote:
Please show me studies that show this. Also tell me how murdering them is better than imprisoning them for life. What does murdering a murderer do besides answer one obscenity with another?
In the case of inheriting something, yes this is true. In the case of someone not having anything else to lose, maybe not.Quote:
Not every murder is premeditated, and not every premeditated murderer murders again.
I'll admit, Texas is not the brightest bulb on the U.S. and the U.S. is not the best model of society to look at either. But there are other countries out there that have a high crime rate. What about Africa? That's a pretty high crime rate there too. Some implement the death penalty and have a low crime rate, some are like the U.S. Some even don't have a high crime rate anyway.Quote:
Yeah! This is why America and Texas in particular have the lowest rate of crime in the world. Oh, wait, they don't, and Texas, the state that murders the most prisoners, has one of the highest crime rates in the nation. Ooops!
Cite this, please.Quote:
Too bad every single piece of data available, without exception, shows that death penalties do not in any way contribute towards improving the crime rates.
What do you suggest we do with murderes? Kill them? No... that would be cruel to the people who kill others cruelly!Quote:
Too bad, also, that nations with rehabilitation oriented prison systems tend to have lower crime rates and recidivism rates than nations like America where our prisons are just glorified slave labor camps. Oops!
LOL STRAW-MANNING!! :DQuote:
Your right. When a car is bad, when I mean bad I mean doesn't work and when the mechanic says "Impound it," it should be immediately destroyed. Why bother trying to repair it? And, yes, a weekly therapy session is totally what I - and only I- am suggesting when I say that criminals should be rehabilitated - you're absolutely amazing PWhit!
On a serious note, I didn't mean to exaggerate that criminals are massaged, I call rehab and therapy the same thing sometimes. Perhaps I was not very clear.
^ Confusing serial killers (the 'thrill killer' subtype, at that) and murderers.Quote:
Originally Posted by PWhit
Huzzah! Demonising and dehumanising an entire group of people! That couldn't possibly have any bad consequences! See also: GENOCIDE.Quote:
Originally Posted by PWhit
^ Confusing murderers for serial killers. Unaware that most serial killers have curable psychological problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by PWhit
jeez puwitt
One thing I think about when considering punishment, is what's actually better? If you think about it, killing the perp. is just a way for them to get out of actually serving their time. She might have to think about it for a while before she's put to death, but in the end, she doesn't have the length of time needed to seriously contemplate how stupid she really was. I'll agree not everyone can be rehabilitated, but I think it's far more suitable for her to have to sit and think about what her actions got her in the long run. At least if she's in jail for several years, she's got time to think, and presumably she'd be part of prison programs where she's making things to give back to society (like pens and crap like that that's sold and the proceeds benefit the blind/disabled.) My cousin was offered the chance to make stuff when she was in prison, and she was able to save up for things like ciggs and snacks and crap like that. I guess my point is, if she's living, there's a chance for her to repay a little of what she did, whether she "repents" or not. I don't know if the UK has those programs or not...I'd assume so, but I don't know for sure.
This whole story reminded me of William Zantzinger.
You can all vilify me if you want, I'm saying most prisoners are monsters and threats to the people. Key word most. You are entitled to disagree with me.
There is an old movie in here (Shile), which I don't recommend to no one, unless they have the sensitivity to watch a old film, that has a very interesting concept.
The movie is named "El Chacal de Nahueltoro", thisi s a movie based on actual events, made by a murder who kill'd a woman and his kids in the location of Nahueltoro, and by the brutality of his act was named The Jackal (The Jackal from Nahueltoro).
The movie focus about how this person who doesn't know the ceverity of his actiongs (he was a person with no education) is educated about it, and he is in some way forced to see the horrors of his actions. And just when he realised about it, he is killed as the real punishment for his actions.