I agree with Clock, I moved to 4chan after learning where Tzvety went for critiques.
Its a nice place actually, lots of good resources.
Anywho - Clock, Sy, you guys are both right. I think artists who are above the level of manga/anime and need more in-depth critiques will not find them at a forum dedicated to it.
As someone who is on the fence about this decision, let me voice my opinion on why I both agree and disagree with this move as I've already told Linz earlier.
1- Because the CC has brought MT art vibes down to a crawl, and we saw this happening from the first day. Nobody wanted to leave the old forum behind, and indeed the AA was still quite active compared to the CC when both were alive and kicking at the same time.
2- Because MT was never known for its abundance of critiques rather than the spirit lifting, 'ego-stroking' comments left by users, including me. Critiques were rare, and still are, even with the CC restrictions in place that nobody has paid attention to at all- myself included.
3- This forum needs another change to the art-side of it, and if only to speed things up and get people back to posting in their own threads the majority of the time. My biggest experiment with this was creating the 'let's exercise' thread two years ago, and what happened? People now post the vast majority of their art there, instead of their own threads. But what also happened was that it brought a spark of life back to art in this site, and there was also no promise of positive, or negative feedback at all. The fact that a lot of work is posted in a sketchbook-like thread shows that most of us are not looking for critiques, rather just a way to show our work to potential on-lookers.
4- It's a good idea to bring back a feature from the days when the forum was more active in that section, and it could turn out good for all I know, we'll have to wait and see. But what we have right now is just not cutting it.
1- Because the definition of the is a place where "you could post art and use the thread as a personal gallery." Right. But we already have this as the site has since evolved into a social hub for it's users, and users now get their own personal galleries by default, which are also displayed to the public via the front page of the forum: 'latest album pictures'. Galleries allow users to post their art free of any strings, receive comments, etc. That's what the AA was, that's what the galleries are.
2- If the AA is brought back now, no doubt it may spark an art phase in the community, but the CC also had that, and now it's gone near stagnant. How long until the AA turns into what the CC is when we're not living in 2009 or 2010 anymore? A lot of our daily users who post a lot are gone and/ or don't come around much anymore, let alone post much. This is a matter of taking into account community involvement and activity levels of the community in that area, and it has dwindled-- a lot.
3- There has always been an imbalance in this community, and there still is. The higher-tier artists often don't look for critiques, rather just a way to show off their newest 'masterpiece', and they attract a lot of attention. And if you're a popular name on MT? Even more-so. The newest users or users still striving to up their skills through feedback and practice are the ones looking for those critiques, thought they won't receive them because the majority of the userbase will go to the more popular thread to post a quick 'this is awesome' or something of the sort, and the people looking for critiques often receive the same comments which does no good for them. I'll be honest, years of the AA made us lazy, and when the CC was brought in, nobody wanted to take any time to leave actual critiques even when they had the chance, and I'm no exception.
Overall: We really have nothing to lose here in terms of activity, and this could be a good move for older users and newer users. I'm cautious though, because actual critiques are sparse already, and for those that want them on this forum specifically, this could cause issues for them. I came up to fame during the years of the AA, and if you wanted a critique, you really had to dig for one. The good thing is, the more experienced artists are sometimes more willing to cough up a good critique. I'm still on the fence, and rather than voting yes or no, I'm just simply not voting. Plus the decision is made already, I see a positive outcome.
These are all my opinions from experience, so I mean, anyone's free to agree or oppose, lol.
I agree and sorta disagree with Gunz's agreeing and disagreeing. In a good way. I shall now copy him.
1. Artist Alley was something to look forward too after coming back from work/classes (or just after waking up) because there were always around 6 artists that would update daily/every other day. That inspired newbies to also update and trade occasionally with the veteran artists (confidence giving etc etc). I would log onto MT and see updates from Cype/Chii/Taerl/Resalan/Seefy/Oops etc, and it would inspire me to make new art if i was in an artblock. So I guess its sentimental value?
1. Even though it was alot of ego stroking and praise, I can only say this about my own communications. I spent at least 4 years in Artist Alley and drew more than I ever have, BECAUSE of the critique I was getting (and having alot of free time). But 90% because of the critique. It was reliable. In the beginning around 2006-07, I would get a praise/critique ratio of 20/80. I kept going because I could see it changing slowly when I would fix anatomy flaws and stuff. During artblocks or times with no inspiration, just browse other threads and look at artists you want to be like someday. MT was awesome because its community was really mellow and unique compared to other art forums.
Overall: I think you can have a mix of CC and AA by specifically asking for critique in your thread title, even though its in Artist Alley. I really do want to get involved again in this art community, but something about having two separate threads for art makes it just confusing/distasteful enough to go "well, i could just throw it on deviantART instead". (distasteful is a strong word, but i dont know another one to use instead OTL ) Only having one thread was nicer. There, I said it *flinches*
I agree and disagree with Sutari agree and sorta disagree with Gunz agree and disagree.
Joking, I just wanted to say that but still I think there are some stuffs to think about it, regardless the discussion if we need a CC or an AA, and its: What do we (I'm going to exclude myself cuz I just can't care) want to be as community?
You want a forum with a gallery section (which we have, but now with one made as a forum)? You want to push rookie artist to get better? If so, how and in which direction? Do you want to focus in just making drawings? Illustrations? Concepts arts? Comics? etc.
I mean, if you have an idea of what you want it become easier to implement things in that direction so its community can start bend on that direction and give consistence to the forum.
Also I agree and disagree with any agreement or disagreement over my statement and its agree and disagreements.
I don't useaully say much, (wich could be part of the problem >-> ) but the way I see it, wether you agree or disagree, bringing back the AA isnt going to really "hurt" anything. Sure, we have other ways to post art...
Gunz:"...and users now get their own personal galleries by default, which are also displayed to the public via the front page of the forum."
Idk about you guys but... I hardly ever look at the front page. I useally dont take the time to look at the bottom of the page... I just zip to whatever topic I want to see.
I understand people want crits, and for the most part i like to give them, but after being on MT for about 7 years now...and trying to be consistant giving crits, you find yourself repeating to the SAME advice and crits over and over and over....AND over, to every new member that shows up. I think the older members that use to give such helpful advice and crits, just got tired. And to be honest, this is part of the the reason I think CC is so dead now.
So in the end I dont really have a solution for the CC, but as far as restoring the AA, the worst I can see thats going to happen is theres going to be more art on MT... so what reason is there really not to vote yes?
I know this sounds really short, but after reading all of this, I agree 100% with Rei. The only new thing I have to throw out there that no one has said yet (or at least specifically) is that I think it would be bestówhatever we decideóthat we have one or the other, not both. A CC and AA at the same time would only separate the art section further and cause unnecessary slowing in activity, I believe. Like Rei said, it would be frustrating to have two art threads, and if we had an AA, we could just ask for critique in the thread title.
My vote: Bring back the Artist's Alley; get rid of the Critique Corner entirely. Even if it's something as simple as changing the subforum title, so our threads don't disappear. But I wouldn't object to a clean start, eitherómaybe that's what we need around this place.
I have a couple of points to make. One being about frontpage galleries vs. forum galleries, and the next being about having both a Critique Corner and Artist Alley at the same time.
There's a system in place that gives everyone their personal gallery and automatically displays pieces on the front-page. The problem with this being that, as NWAP said, not everyone takes the time to even visit those galleries. Most users go directly onto the forums because that's the place where things happen. At least, that's what we're used to. Right now it's not ideal for anyone. The active users get to go to the ghost town known as Critique Corner, and people stumbling upon this site get to go to the frontpage where literally nothing is happening either. This is probably because the site started out as -only- forum, and so the active users are used to going to these forums, not the frontpage. I think the switch to being more of a social hub instead of a forum was a really critical point for MT as a whole. This is why I think returning the Artist Alley instead of using the personal galleries we have now is a good move, because honestly, who can say they have seen this community improve as a result of the changes we've been going through?
Secondly, I don't see why we shouldn't have an Artist Alley and a Critique Corner at the same time. I've seen the suggestions of people requesting critique when they upload their pieces to their AA, and that's how it worked on the older forums ('CnC Appreciated!'). But in my eyes it wouldn't necessarily hurt the place to keep the Critique Corner, except to use it in a different fashion as it is being used now. While the Artist Alley would be a big collection of everyone's personal galleries where they upload most of their art, the Critique Corner would be a place to upload -only- pieces you want critique on. This way people won't be disappointed if they upload their pieces in the AA and don't get critique. People actually getting useful critique in the CC would be another thing, though. I think there can be a lot of arguing for either keeping or removing the Critique Corner.
We could easily keep both, but the problem is that most people would prefer to visit the AA as it's more a commoner's place. The CC would be... well, barren, at least that's how I'd see it turning out. I mean you could do some hardcore self promoting, but getting people to write a full-on critique is like pulling teeth sometimes, especially when we're all busy doin' our own thing.
The best choice I see is just reverting back to the AA, getting rid of the CC, and having people that want critiques do what whoever (I forgot, too lazy to go back and read) said, and state it in their thread titles, and that could be a guideline rule-- if you want critiques, request them in the title.
I think a piece-by-piece request method would work far better though, as they'd still get the comments of the general majority, and people wouldn't feel as bothered doing a critique for a single piece, rather than every piece. And I mean, crits don't have to be super huge paragraphs.
Originally Posted by Celestial-Fox
Um..What activity? I think we are pretty much at a crawl right now as it is :/ . I think we should throw CC and AA in together and let them fight to the death. I can't see myself becoming "frustrated" over where I should post my art...why not in both? I really don't see what we have to lose