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Originally Posted by eltoroguaco

Well as you said, everything we make is based on what we already know. Well then, if we do this by default, why do we need reference?

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No I said everything has basically already been created. Can you draw the human skeleton for me right now? No reference. I want it detailed and labeled.
You don't have to use reference at all if you dont want to. But that also means that you have to accept that your work will allways have flaws and be wrong. People will see it and point it out because maybe they have seen what it really looks like enough times to know.
To tell some one "No I ment for it to be that way because that's how I pictured it in my mind." would be extremely arrogant of an artist. Yet it's exactly how an artist that uses no reference will respond. Childish and delusional.

You can draw the human heart 1000 times with no reffrences but that doesnt mean it will ever be accurate or believable.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...sforlosers.png

(but seriosly, DO use reference. It's kick-ass)

I only use reference if I'm in doubt. And to your part and I quote

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To tell some one "No I ment for it to be that way because that's how I pictured it in my mind." would be extremely arrogant of an artist. Yet it's exactly how an artist that uses no reference will respond.

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Is not always right. As for me as an example, I rarely to never use reference but I NEVER brag about own arts or claim it's as I imagined. I never get it as I imagined either, with or without reference. I believe really few or no artists can do that. Reference can be good if you know how to use it. But there are so many that pick a picture on google and draw straight from it! Lets say if one were to draw a girl in a black dress. He google it and find a picture of a girl with red hair sitting on her knee in a black dress and scars in her face. He use it as a ref and draws the exact same girl in the exact same dress with the exact same pose. That is NOT the artistic way of using refs! If you are to use a ref, use it to see how the anatomy, objects , surroundings and cloths look like, and respond to physics. For then to draw what you originally imagined without it being the same as in the pictures. As for me, I spend 2 years drawing Dragons. At first, I didn't use refs at all, but later realized my anatomy was wrong so I needed some. I then looked up at some pictures and practised on some body parts for then to close it and draw what I imagined. Later I got other things to help me. I have dragon statues on my desk and I looked at my dogs to see some animal anatomy. I also often look out the window to see weather, trees and skies and I look at moving surroundings from my car. So yes, I use reference, but I only look on it til I remember it and draw from my memory and not from the picture.

Wow this became a wall of text, but at least I think I've said my point now.

I didn't want to comment, but this is funny.

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Originally Posted by eltoroguaco

I only use reference if I'm in doubt. And to your part and I quote Is not always right. As for me as an example, I rarely to never use reference but I NEVER brag about own arts or claim it's as I imagined. I never get it as I imagined either, with or without reference.

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Weird, most artist get things as they imagined, even when people try new techniques, but as they have the bases, they can make it as they imagined. Maybe your problem is that you haven't used enough references and neither have focused on real human being anatomy.

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Originally Posted by eltoroguaco

Reference can be good if you know how to use it. But there are so many that pick a picture on google and draw straight from it! Lets say if one were to draw a girl in a black dress. He google it and find a picture of a girl with red hair sitting on her knee in a black dress and scars in her face. He use it as a ref and draws the exact same girl in the exact same dress with the exact same pose. That is NOT the artistic way of using refs!

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Which is the "artistic" use of references? Artist have been doing that for centuries, so saying "is not the artistic way" is a bold proposition, please back it up. I do agree that references are not just "look and copy", that there are other things to take from it, but references help as they create a memory catalog on your head of poses, techniques and principles; they are the complete application of almost everything you see on theoretic drawing.

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Originally Posted by eltoroguaco

As for me, I spend 2 years drawing Dragons. At first, I didn't use refs at all, but later realized my anatomy was wrong so I needed some.

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How is possible that something that doesn't exist has a wrong anatomy? Did you went to look real dragons or something?

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Originally Posted by eltoroguaco

I have dragon statues on my desk and I looked at my dogs to see some animal anatomy.

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Dragon statues made by people who used dragon's as references? A dog with real dragon anatomy? The big deal with mythical creatures is that you can do what ever you want with them in anatomy, but we still use references of animals because they are the most related to what these creatures are supposed to look, and also because we have no way to create something out of our reality. This makes mythical creatures 100% based on references, and if you don't use references, be ready to make mythical creatures that look like a 3 years old kid draw with crayons.


One of the funny things is that you nag people on using references and then you accept the fact you also use references, but you just use them at 1/4 of its potential.

I don't nag it, I just don't like copying. On arts that is done like that in the past, like Mona lisa, it's meant to be that exact person or place, so then ofc refs is required and they pose to be painted. In all, the poser agrees to be painted. I think that copying a reference you find on the internet, especially if it's of a person, is as bad as stealing the picture. as the person on the photo or the owner of the original picture have not agreed on you drawing it. However if you only use the anatomy or the base of the objects or surroundings, you do not copy the art and therefore make it more original and own as well as not stealing something you do not own the rights of. No matter what you say, I will only use references to see the base and anatomy unless it's a person I'm about to draw and got the rights to draw them. Though even then, I'll change the pose and clothing (as for the draw an mt member thread).

I rarely use references, but I collect a ton of them just in case.

There's a difference between referencing a picture and stealing it. References are use for anatomy, to see how clothing falls a certain way, shading, etc. It's fine to copy a picture for education purposes, as long as you don't say it's your own idea and/or credit the original artist. Stealing art (what you're talking about, Guaco) is copying a picture AND saying that it's yours.

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Originally Posted by eltoroguaco

I rarely to never use reference

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I don't understand why you don't, though. You have problems in your art which could easily be fixed if you sat down and practiced, and looked at various photos of humans studying facial structure, bone structure, movement, hands, legs, feet, etc. If you said this to a professional artist who's been doing studies and practicing his whole life, he'd laugh at you. Again, you do not know what you're doing until you actually sit down and look at it.

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But there are so many that pick a picture on google and draw straight from it! Lets say if one were to draw a girl in a black dress. He google it and find a picture of a girl with red hair sitting on her knee in a black dress and scars in her face. He use it as a ref and draws the exact same girl in the exact same dress with the exact same pose. That is NOT the artistic way of using refs!

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?? Who are you to judge how someone uses this ref and if or if not its an artistic way? If this guy is practicing dynamic poses with clothed people, and interesting atmospheres, good for him for actually practicing. This is the best way to practice, apart from having a live model. I understand if he's just shittily drawing/tracing this and saying it's his own, but that's not what any of us are talking about so I'm not sure the point in bringing it up.

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If you are to use a ref, use it to see how the anatomy, objects , surroundings and cloths look like, and respond to physics.

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THEN WHY DONT YOU USE A REFERENCE?

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As for me, I spend 2 years drawing Dragons. At first, I didn't use refs at all, but later realized my anatomy was wrong so I needed some.

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Lol

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I then looked up at some pictures and practised on some body parts for then to close it and draw what I imagined. Later I got other things to help me. I have dragon statues on my desk and I looked at my dogs to see some animal anatomy. I also often look out the window to see weather, trees and skies and I look at moving surroundings from my car. So yes, I use reference, but I only look on it til I remember it and draw from my memory and not from the picture.

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Lol but you never actually sit down and make a study off of these. I don't see any sketches of your surroundings. You can't just memorize these things. You have to actually sit down and look at them, take pictures and draw in your sketch book. If you were totally serious about being able to draw a dragon, you would go far in your studies. You would look up a ton of references of reptiles, or if you like, go to a zoo. Or if you're hardcore, catch a reptile with your teeth and lay its body on your desk as you sketch it. You would understand that dogs =/= dragons and you may even go as far as trying to compare reptiles and mammals. You would study up on scales as well and the texture, so that your dragons will look more believable. You'd also maybe go back to understanding how lighting and shading works because dragon art tends to have dramatic, dark lighting. You would also figure out the size of the traditional dragon compared to a human. And if you're still having troubles with scales and texture, you'd fill up a few pages of just practicing being able to draw scales. And if you're still having problems with the proportions of a dragon, maybe you're having trouble with proportions in general, so you go back to basic proportions and maybe study up on some loomis and look for techniques.

Don't tell me you studied dragons. You didn't. You barely tried. You looked at a few pictures and bought a cheap statue and said K i'm ready

For everyone else, here's a way to learn from a study. Watch the whole thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nyjnB1PimA

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I don't nag it, I just don't like copying. On arts that is done like that in the past, like Mona lisa, it's meant to be that exact person or place, so then ofc refs is required and they pose to be painted. In all, the poser agrees to be painted. I think that copying a reference you find on the internet, especially if it's of a person, is as bad as stealing the picture. as the person on the photo or the owner of the original picture have not agreed on you drawing it. However if you only use the anatomy or the base of the objects or surroundings, you do not copy the art and therefore make it more original and own as well as not stealing something you do not own the rights of. No matter what you say, I will only use references to see the base and anatomy unless it's a person I'm about to draw and got the rights to draw them. Though even then, I'll change the pose and clothing (as for the draw an mt member thread).

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You don't understand the point of a reference and I don't think you understand that no art is original. If you think tracing is the same as sketching a pose from a photograph, please turn in your artist badge.

I think any person that is serious about their art and not looking to make it stylized so it looks completely cartoony would use reference. Even in learning anatomy you look at references. So yea like I said you dont have to use reff but you won't become as good as you could if you did. Just seems like an awful lot of time to waste guessing instead of learning and knowing.

Totally well said 3J

Learning to use ref and using it right so that it suits you is definitely a skill to have, though I wouldn't say it's an absolute necessary thing to become a great artist. Same thing with drawing from life.