Video Games; a Insult?

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Originally Posted by Inksprout

The funny thing about war games like COD and battlefield is I'm pretty sure they actually speak to soldeirs as part of the research when they are making the games. It leads me to question how the games actually end up the way they are. Surely the soldiers aren't saying tp the research team, "YEAH it was SO BADASS when I shot that one guy in the face!" or anything like that.

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So I always figured most soldiers didnt like to talk about the awful shit they've seen on the battlefield and whatnot but my experiences say otherwise. One of the inventory supervisors at my job talked about "scoring kills" as if it were a game or something when he was in iraq. Not a bad guy by any means, but it seemed strange to me since scoring has an air of fun to it when I can't ever imagine killing being fun.

I also got insulted by a customer because I said the gore in mortal kombat was disgusting. He said something along the lines of, "I was in the army. I've seen shit!" without a hint of sincerity. He was literally bragging about watching dudes die (possibly).

My friend chris saw a guy's head get blown off while in iraw. He mentioned it casually like he was talking about his sister getting married.

I had a design class with a marine who got discharged for being "homocidal and suicidal" because he liked to rush headfirst into combat. The dude had crazy scars including one in his neck from a knife. I jokingly asked him if he stabbed the guy back, which was p dumb on my part. He went "yeah I killed the motherfucker."

k, I just slogged through Hulk's article. It's a good article and all, but God the gimmick was killing me. Some things:

1.) His issue with gameplay. It seems like the general theme for the first half of the essay is that as long as there is some derived action (or objective basis) in a game, it cannot qualify as art. But doesn't he say, for a game to qualify as art, the actions simply have to be meaningful or have some meaningful implication? For example, slaying Colossi may seem derived and repetitive, but doesn't it bear significant meaning every time you do so? Just because the action seems derived does not mean it doesn't heavily complement the narrative, or is not plot-appropriate. He seems to be taking slightly flawed gameplay and trying to rationalize it as narrative incoherency.

2.) Memorization versus strategy. I understand he praises MW1 for its emphasis on memorization, but personally I believe there is a distinct difference between 'strategic' games and 'retention' games. For example if you played match two and memorized where the cards are, isn't it technically less strategic than coming up with a formula or making on-the-spot judgments to accurately predict where matching cards are. Memorization is merely the product of repeated trial-and-error. Technically, if you are repeatedly failing at a task as a method of attaining success, the game isn't really promoting strategic play at all, so much as it's forcing you to memorize specific scenarios and execute a particular set of movements. You go from level to level possibly having learned nothing of the overarching mechanics of the game. You simply learned how to beat level 1...and the process repeats until you beat level 2. The main facet of a well-strategized plan--having the room and ability to improvise, and to display mastery of the mechanics, not just the single level--is absent from trial and error gameplay.

I mean there's more but if I wrote anymore it would be impossible to reply to.

I get what you mean in point 2 but I dont know if he articulated it correctly since he doesn't really use any gamer lingo. What I believe he was trying to say was that mw1 was a well crafted corridor shooter with a mind for how to properly use your equipment where as mw2 was a bunch of open air set pieces where you hid behind shit for hours on end. If so I agree with him.

As far as point 1, yeah. I'm not sure I consider games as art but not because of their inherent nature of requiring gameplay.

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Originally Posted by jubeh

So I always figured most soldiers didnt like to talk about the awful shit they've seen on the battlefield and whatnot but my experiences say otherwise. One of the inventory supervisors at my job talked about "scoring kills" as if it were a game or something when he was in iraq. Not a bad guy by any means, but it seemed strange to me since scoring has an air of fun to it when I can't ever imagine killing being fun.

I also got insulted by a customer because I said the gore in mortal kombat was disgusting. He said something along the lines of, "I was in the army. I've seen shit!" without a hint of sincerity. He was literally bragging about watching dudes die (possibly).

My friend chris saw a guy's head get blown off while in iraw. He mentioned it casually like he was talking about his sister getting married.

I had a design class with a marine who got discharged for being "homocidal and suicidal" because he liked to rush headfirst into combat. The dude had crazy scars including one in his neck from a knife. I jokingly asked him if he stabbed the guy back, which was p dumb on my part. He went "yeah I killed the motherfucker."

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Yeah the only soldiers I've ever met that weren't completely like this were seasoned men, either long-time servicemen or men with extremely bad shell-shock. I blame video games and Fox News.

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Originally Posted by jubeh

So I always figured most soldiers didnt like to talk about the awful shit they've seen on the battlefield and whatnot but my experiences say otherwise. One of the inventory supervisors at my job talked about "scoring kills" as if it were a game or something when he was in iraq. Not a bad guy by any means, but it seemed strange to me since scoring has an air of fun to it when I can't ever imagine killing being fun.

I also got insulted by a customer because I said the gore in mortal kombat was disgusting. He said something along the lines of, "I was in the army. I've seen shit!" without a hint of sincerity. He was literally bragging about watching dudes die (possibly).

My friend chris saw a guy's head get blown off while in iraw. He mentioned it casually like he was talking about his sister getting married.

I had a design class with a marine who got discharged for being "homocidal and suicidal" because he liked to rush headfirst into combat. The dude had crazy scars including one in his neck from a knife. I jokingly asked him if he stabbed the guy back, which was p dumb on my part. He went "yeah I killed the motherfucker."

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In light of that how can we say that these games are insulting to the reality of warfare? If the people who have been there treat it like that then I can't see it as any fault of ours if we make games that portray it in a similar way. People who have never been in a war can't really criticise those who have and say that they are describing it wrong. Perhaps what we expect a game about serious warfare from a soldier's perspective is very different from the reality of what soldiers experience, and the feelings these games create are much closer to the reality?

No because soldiers generally don't do the shit you do in Modern Warfare.

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Originally Posted by Inksprout

In light of that how can we say that these games are insulting to the reality of warfare? If the people who have been there treat it like that then I can't see it as any fault of ours if we make games that portray it in a similar way. People who have never been in a war can't really criticise those who have and say that they are describing it wrong. Perhaps what we expect a game about serious warfare from a soldier's perspective is very different from the reality of what soldiers experience, and the feelings these games create are much closer to the reality?

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I didn't say any of that

no but thats pretty much what clock was saying at the start of the thread.

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Originally Posted by Sylux

No because soldiers generally don't do the shit you do in Modern Warfare.

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What about the kill team? You know, those guys that were basically a squad acting on their own in Iraq, just killing tangos for the hell of it, and then posting their dismantled bodies on the net like achievements?

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Originally Posted by ClockHand

The whole Deus Ex: Human Revolution, was just about empowering someone to kill hundred if not million of soldiers, so at the end they ask you if you forgive the life of some few shitty people in a building (and your life too).

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Wait I just saw this. Is that seriously what you got out of this game?