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johan
06-14-2011, 04:36 PM
I know that there were several threads covering this subject but I hope you can share some extra thoughts. As title says, my question is, how to practice? Let's say I'm total beginner(because I am) and I've collected some drawing manga books. Should I practice copying someone's works? Should I spend two hours drawing per day? Should I practice all things(like drawing faces in various angles, drawing various poses of body, drawing eyes, hair styles etc.) at the same time? Maybe should I practice one thing in one day and next day another thing? Should I draw things from imagination or use references as many as possible? I don't know if it's a good idea to blindly follow a drawing book, because every book lacks something. And the question is how to use a material included in the book. Hope you understand what I meant by question "how to practice".

apples13
06-14-2011, 05:31 PM
some beginners get lost in this "routine" that you must do everything in a certain way.
in terms of designing as long as you have a basic understanding of the illusions created on paper that should be a great starting point.
for example do you understand that things in the background appear smaller than things in the foreground?
do you understand general perspective stuff. even though it is on 2d paper you can create 3 dimensional objects.( start with a simple cube or sphere) also when you move 1 thing it will affect something else . if you move your arm up what muscles also go up besides the muscles on the arm? ( answer: muscles on the chest will also be stretched)

there is 2 ways to get better at drawing.

1. to practice hand eye( and brain) coordination
( are you making smooth lines like you want? and you creating the type of shape you want? can you mentally measure things?)
2. to observe and understand the illusion of drawing to create these 3d forms on 2d, techniques to convey emotion( how to change the face or body to represent different things), and styles that communicate a certain feeling to your viewer( is it cute? is it strong? is it scary?)

either way it takes time.
there are also things I call "secret tricks" that more advanced artists understand which allow them to short cut into creating certain illusions. ( maybe it takes you a few hours to do something a more advanced artist can do in a few minutes with a certain short cut technique

these "secret techniques" are what help you get past certain types of art blocks and will help you advance in art if you feel like your progression is slowing down. on the other hand sometimes even after learning these secret techniques you are not able to utilize them because your foundation is not strong enough, in which case you have to try to improve those foundations and improve your understanding of design before you try out the technique again.

I hope this helps

ram
06-14-2011, 08:21 PM
:cat_yahoo: just do it how you want...
this thread will just probably confuse you...
you will see tons of different opinions.. >.<

Fenn
06-14-2011, 10:37 PM
Why do you want to be an artist? That's the first question that should be on your mind. If it's for leisure, don't worry, just draw in the way you find most enjoyable. If it's for profession, do lots of research and reading, take art classes, and talk to experts (of which I am not).

Apples had good suggestions for the determined artist.

ram
06-15-2011, 01:00 AM
well if there's one thing i learned from my way of trying to improve... it's better to improve doing places first.. >.<
i haven't drawn any places all my life so now I'm doing the best i can just to master all those things..
i just learned that a human body is just one piece of material. so drawing objects would benefit your improvement on drawing the human body... >.<

apples13
06-15-2011, 01:31 AM
once you learn how to design the human body and it's accessories the other things will come easily.
although we give the human character life through emotions and such in the design at its core it is still built with fundamental shapes and still follow fundamental perspective. learning the other things becomes a piece of cake once you master one thing.

Hamachi
06-15-2011, 11:15 AM
Apples, I love your explanations. I don't think anyone could have put that better.

johan
06-16-2011, 06:51 AM
Thanks for you useful advices, guys! I have two more questions. First about practicing hand-eye coordination. Is it good to copy works to develop this skill? And the second one, do you know good books about perspective, especially placing figures in perspective? I've ran through some tutorials, but I'm still confused. Thanks, again!

Hamachi
06-16-2011, 08:44 AM
For exercises you should try Keys to Drawing (http://www.amazon.com/Keys-Drawing-Bert-Dodson/dp/0891343377/) by Bert Dodson. For perspective resources you should read Perspective Without Pain (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0891344462/) by Phil Metzger.

Copying is good but you shouldn't focus only on copying. If you want a quick overview of what exercises you should do but don't want to buy above books, just Google "drawing exercises."

ram
06-16-2011, 09:02 AM
man hamachi your so RICH DUDE! recomending books to buy..

first you should read the massive online tutorial list.. about pespective stuffs..
rio posted some stuffs there that could help you
http://www.mangatutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?84-Massive-Online-Drawing-Tutorials-List-v.3.0
then you should research on your own... and try what hamachi recomended

Rio
06-16-2011, 10:08 AM
Perspective books I like: Perspective Made Easy (http://www.amazon.com/Perspective-Made-Easy-Ernest-Norling/dp/9563100166/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308233082&sr=8-1) by Norling and Perspective Drawing Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Perspective-Drawing-Handbook-Dover-Instruction/dp/0486432084/ref=pd_sim_b_3) by D'Amelio
If you can get your hands on them without paying (I borrowed them from the library), I highly recommend you check them out.

ram
06-16-2011, 11:23 AM
hehehehe....:cat_gleam:
got my hands on it now..
thanks so much Rio..

The_shaman
06-16-2011, 10:49 PM
man hamachi your so RICH DUDE! recomending books to buy..

first you should read the massive online tutorial list.. about pespective stuffs..
rio posted some stuffs there that could help you
http://www.mangatutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?84-Massive-Online-Drawing-Tutorials-List-v.3.0
then you should research on your own... and try what hamachi recomended
He'll learn more from those two books than more than half of those site to be honest.

Rio
06-17-2011, 11:39 AM
Agreed. The problem with sites generally is the lack of depth of information that they offer. If they do have a lot of information, it's not free most of the time. :\

...But hey, you take what you can get if you have no other alternatives. It'll be a tougher road but sometimes you just have to take it until you can get better sources and info.

apples13
06-17-2011, 12:42 PM
i believe that with new technology the old books are becoming very bad at teaching new artists about modern design. once they read it they will be trapped by this old style mind set confused on what to do because it clashes with modern design ideals. on the other hand there are not a lot of modern design books that are actually any good lol

ram
06-17-2011, 07:39 PM
Agreed. The problem with sites generally is the lack of depth of information that they offer. If they do have a lot of information, it's not free most of the time. :\

...But hey, you take what you can get if you have no other alternatives. It'll be a tougher road but sometimes you just have to take it until you can get better sources and info.

i believe what you posted is good rio.. I've been reading other books about perspective now but it seems what information they have are too easy and just auto-didactic.. >.<

Hamachi
06-17-2011, 08:00 PM
i believe that with new technology the old books are becoming very bad at teaching new artists about modern design. once they read it they will be trapped by this old style mind set confused on what to do because it clashes with modern design ideals. on the other hand there are not a lot of modern design books that are actually any good lol

Yeah, I know what you mean. Modern ideals are different from what they were in the past, but they're harder to identify. Just as an example I can see the change in trends just in the comic books from the mid-20th century to what they are today - earlier on, 90-degree "upright" and symbolic figures by artists such as Roy Lichtenstein or Stan Lee were pretty popular. Nowadays the Western fad at least seems all about action shots and extreme perspectives, etc. A similar trend can be seen in anatomy books; ex. the old Bridgmans are so detailed but devoid of movement while currently we're pushing for as much expressiveness as possible.

I would say, though, that there are some principles in observation that never change. I mean, those things should be what beginners have to learn first - contour, cross-contour and gesture, proportions, perspective, etc. and all their corresponding exercises. Heck, I still need to do most of these too.

The_shaman
06-17-2011, 08:05 PM
i believe that with new technology the old books are becoming very bad at teaching new artists about modern design. once they read it they will be trapped by this old style mind set confused on what to do because it clashes with modern design ideals. on the other hand there are not a lot of modern design books that are actually any good lol
The thing is, modern design is all built off of those old books or better put old teachings. Only thing that is changing is how new technology goes about doing. /no matter who you do perspective you are still following perspective, no matter how you go about shading you are still following the value scale. Same thing with drawing people and so on, and to be honest its the modern users who bother to learn and understand tradition means of doing things that usually; 1. have a better understanding and easier time drawing or painting digitally, and 2. do to that traditional understand usually produce better looking work digitally and you can argue this with me, but it will only become a pointless cycle that won't end really. In the end as long as it teaches the artist things such as the basics of; how to see, how to think, and how to design it holds some merit since its these 3 things that govern both traditional and digital.

CypressDahlia
06-18-2011, 01:43 AM
Stick with what you can get. If you can afford books, buy books. if you can't, find online tutorials. There is no right way to learn or practice. I never bought or read a single art book in my life, aside from art history texts for college, but that's not holding me back from getting better at art.

As long as you can learn, it doesn't matter how.

apples13
06-18-2011, 04:08 AM
The thing is, modern design is all built off of those old books or better put old teachings. Only thing that is changing is how new technology goes about doing. /no matter who you do perspective you are still following perspective, no matter how you go about shading you are still following the value scale. Same thing with drawing people and so on, and to be honest its the modern users who bother to learn and understand tradition means of doing things that usually; 1. have a better understanding and easier time drawing or painting digitally, and 2. do to that traditional understand usually produce better looking work digitally and you can argue this with me, but it will only become a pointless cycle that won't end really. In the end as long as it teaches the artist things such as the basics of; how to see, how to think, and how to design it holds some merit since its these 3 things that govern both traditional and digital.

I believe with our new technology we can understand the fundamentals much easier without using techniques from the conventional books.
although you are learning the same thing, we have 3d technology and many other types tools that will teach the subject much more thoroughly and easily than learning from conventional books. it is like learning how to use the computer from a windows 95 now, of course you can still do it, but there are much better ways that give you a lot more as well as doing a better job at guiding you towards a modern mindset.

Psy
06-20-2011, 05:16 PM
No amount of drawing on a computer is going to teach you how to draw with a pencil. Drawing with a tablet is completely unnatural feeling and takes allot of practice to do properly but its unlikely that once youve got the hang of it that you can reproduce the same results with traditional mediums.

apples13
06-20-2011, 05:41 PM
No amount of drawing on a computer is going to teach you how to draw with a pencil. Drawing with a tablet is completely unnatural feeling and takes allot of practice to do properly but its unlikely that once youve got the hang of it that you can reproduce the same results with traditional mediums.

really if you have chosen to be an illustrator there is no reason you "must" draw on paper anymore.
most people who draw on the computer plan on trying to get better at drawing on the computer.
also understanding things like perspective/anatomy does not require you to start drawing on paper

Rio
06-20-2011, 07:18 PM
That's true - people aren't required to draw on paper anymore but it's a heck of a lot easier to just pick up a paper and pencil and draw than it is to turn on a computer, keep it powered, and to draw.

ram
06-21-2011, 10:27 AM
Stick with what you can get. If you can afford books, buy books. if you can't, find online tutorials. There is no right way to learn or practice. I never bought or read a single art book in my life, aside from art history texts for college, but that's not holding me back from getting better at art.

As long as you can learn, it doesn't matter how.

I like how cype does it... actually I think it's much better to go to youtube and download any speed paint and slow it down... imitate some great artist there of how they draw...

or just go to groupboard and see how people draw there...
it's much better than reading drawing books... you'll learn far better that way than keep on going researching of how to improve... cause you can't improve if you don't practice... (I've been reading drawing books now and it seems they just teach me what i already know and things i already figure out my self)

I've given a drawing book my self to the "recommend your drawing book thread".. but those are japanese and i just copy what guide lines that book has... and that's all i need from those books...

procedural memory are still different from episodic memory somehow... some memory that you have in episodic memory can't go to your procedural memory no matter what you do:cat_yell:

believe in your self that believes in you! :cat_soccer:

Rio
06-21-2011, 11:40 AM
Drop by the Group Board. Some folks get or give lessons there cuz someone asks.

Slurpee
06-21-2011, 12:43 PM
I highly suggest you study a little bit of everything at the same time because you will get to a point where you want to draw something but can't fully express it because you don't know what you're doing wrong/right/etc...

bambi
07-19-2011, 09:36 PM
I think it's fine to imitate artists you admire when you're first starting out... but the way I really learned to draw was just to pick something I wanted to draw and draw it. Learning about realism helps too. Realism places less importance on the thing you're drawing and more importance on what you see.

I would try to use photographs for reference. Draw what you see. And from there you can develop a style.