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View Full Version : Voting for the return of the Artist Alley



Linz
03-17-2013, 02:52 PM
'Sup guys.

This is the thread where you can voice your opinions about the Artist Alley being brought back. This motion has been brought forth due to this thread: http://www.mangatutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?2863-Forums-Disappearing-from-the-internet/page4

We need 10 votes FOR the motion to be carried.


So, Artist Alley: For or Against?


EDIT:
The more I thought about this thread the more I realised I should post a little synopsis of what the Artist Alley was.

The Artist Alley was where you could make your own thread and post your art whether it was completed or a WIP. Critique wasn't mandatory and usually if you did want critique you'd have to ask for it. A lot of artists on MT used the Artist Alley as a personal gallery, sharing images and building a small fan base. Art trades would sometimes be set up with the artists then posted. Requests could also be taken and gift art was also created. The minimal rules for the Artist Alley allowed the artists to do what they do best; be creative. I personally have noticed a lack of posting from certain popular artists since the departure of the Artist Alley and it would be excellent if it could return so the artists who don't want/need critique can post and still contribute to the community.

<:

GaBo
03-17-2013, 02:53 PM
For, make it so!

Matt
03-17-2013, 02:56 PM
You have my sword.
http://www.minecraftopia.com/images/blocks/diamond_sword.png

ClockHand
03-17-2013, 03:01 PM
don't we already have it?

Linz
03-17-2013, 03:04 PM
We have the critique corner. The artist alley was more laid back, you could post art and use the thread as a personal gallery whereas the CC is designed for people to post art for critique ONLY.

ClockHand
03-17-2013, 03:11 PM
It is only for critique only? I mean I think a lot of people only use it to just upload their stuffs (you could also tell that you don't want critiques), and there is also a big gallery on the website to just upload images; without forgetting that I don't think that people are forced to critique other people works on the critique corner(its just if you really want to or feel like it).

Anyway, I really don't care, I guess its okay, if that what people want or they feel this is gonna be a plus.

(also I think the people who most wanted critiques have moved to other places for that, so I guess its not really much to do on the critique corner now)

Linz
03-17-2013, 03:13 PM
Quote from the description below the Critique Corner:
"Get critique's on your artwork! **PLEASE DO NOT POST HERE JUST TO SHOW OFF YOUR WORK!**"

Sho
03-17-2013, 03:13 PM
You have my sword.
http://www.minecraftopia.com/images/blocks/diamond_sword.png

And my bow.
http://www.minecraftopia.com/images/blocks/bow.png

ClockHand
03-17-2013, 03:15 PM
Quote from the description below the Critique Corner:
"Get critique's on your artwork! **PLEASE DO NOT POST HERE JUST TO SHOW OFF YOUR WORK!**"

ic

Shnorkel
03-17-2013, 03:34 PM
And my bow.
http://www.minecraftopia.com/images/blocks/bow.png
And my axe!
http://media-mcw.cursecdn.com/9/99/Ironaxe.png

Demonfyre
03-17-2013, 03:49 PM
I'm all for this idea, but i'm curious, wouldn't this make the 'Critique corner' pretty much redundant?

indescribable
03-17-2013, 03:51 PM
Victory is ours.

Linz
03-17-2013, 03:53 PM
VICTORY IS INDEED OURS! 8D

@Demon: Not necessarily, people who solely want critiques can post it in the CC then post the finished piece in the AA. The options are limitless if you just ~open your mind~

Demonfyre
03-17-2013, 03:58 PM
@Linz - Fair enough, sounds good :D


Yayayayayay, victory is always good

nextweek
03-17-2013, 04:02 PM
Please bring this back.

Sho
03-17-2013, 05:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YCN-a0NsNk

Ooocast
03-17-2013, 06:11 PM
Yeah it'd be pretty cool to have back.

Joosh
03-17-2013, 06:47 PM
Who voted no?!?

WHERE IS HE.

Sylux
03-17-2013, 08:18 PM
Glad to see that this is a thread full of intelligent discussion and Clock isn't the only one voicing himself with a higher degree of linguistic effort and craftsmanship and not a bunch of people making giddy remarks left and right.

The current artist's alley has almost nothing to do with critiques. I've asked for criticism plenty of times and can't get more than a "oh that looks strange lol good job snicker snicker" from people. All the Artist Alley will do is allow for people to massively stroke our top-tier artists's massive egos moreso than the CC is for at current. It is ridiculous how the beginner-intermediate cannot get a single goddamn quality critique, whereas the higher-end artists get massive floods of comments and ridiculous amounts of radiating amourism from the amateur class. Which is another thing; the absolute lowest-tier beginner gets more constructive criticism from big names than the median range artists.

This is more than personal cynicism, as well. In my own thread my piece:comment ratio is alright by me; every 2-5 sketches or 1-3 artpieces from me will see a positive comment, but never a single damned critique. I counted 17 critiques in my own thread, only 4 or 5 of them were more than two lines, only two of them included redlines, and 3 of them were about working in the restaurant industry. That's out of 19 pages of my crappy sketches and people sucking my e-dick. I'm not okay with how the art threads are now, and I will certainly be far less okay whenever this Artist Alley business goes down. It will mark the end of construction and what little there is, and the beginning of massive worship-circles.

In conclusion what the fuck do I care this is going to happen anyway.

ClockHand
03-17-2013, 08:31 PM
Just do what we all did and leave. Everyone who has been searching for critiques in MT have move on to different places (4chan, youtube videos or classes) and if this is what people want, regardless the voting as the future use of this will dictate or not the sentence for what will come to the critique alley, there is not much you can do and its an obvious signal that what people on the forum want is not what you want so you should search for a place that have what you want and not force the forum to change.

So move on.

Joosh
03-17-2013, 08:45 PM
I agree with Clock, I moved to 4chan after learning where Tzvety went for critiques.

Its a nice place actually, lots of good resources.

Anywho - Clock, Sy, you guys are both right. I think artists who are above the level of manga/anime and need more in-depth critiques will not find them at a forum dedicated to it.

GunZet
03-17-2013, 09:11 PM
As someone who is on the fence about this decision, let me voice my opinion on why I both agree and disagree with this move as I've already told Linz earlier.

I agree:

1- Because the CC has brought MT art vibes down to a crawl, and we saw this happening from the first day. Nobody wanted to leave the old forum behind, and indeed the AA was still quite active compared to the CC when both were alive and kicking at the same time.

2- Because MT was never known for its abundance of critiques rather than the spirit lifting, 'ego-stroking' comments left by users, including me. Critiques were rare, and still are, even with the CC restrictions in place that nobody has paid attention to at all- myself included.

3- This forum needs another change to the art-side of it, and if only to speed things up and get people back to posting in their own threads the majority of the time. My biggest experiment with this was creating the 'let's exercise' thread two years ago, and what happened? People now post the vast majority of their art there, instead of their own threads. But what also happened was that it brought a spark of life back to art in this site, and there was also no promise of positive, or negative feedback at all. The fact that a lot of work is posted in a sketchbook-like thread shows that most of us are not looking for critiques, rather just a way to show our work to potential on-lookers.

4- It's a good idea to bring back a feature from the days when the forum was more active in that section, and it could turn out good for all I know, we'll have to wait and see. But what we have right now is just not cutting it.

I disagree:

1- Because the definition of the is a place where "you could post art and use the thread as a personal gallery." Right. But we already have this as the site has since evolved into a social hub for it's users, and users now get their own personal galleries by default, which are also displayed to the public via the front page of the forum: 'latest album pictures'. Galleries allow users to post their art free of any strings, receive comments, etc. That's what the AA was, that's what the galleries are.

2- If the AA is brought back now, no doubt it may spark an art phase in the community, but the CC also had that, and now it's gone near stagnant. How long until the AA turns into what the CC is when we're not living in 2009 or 2010 anymore? A lot of our daily users who post a lot are gone and/ or don't come around much anymore, let alone post much. This is a matter of taking into account community involvement and activity levels of the community in that area, and it has dwindled-- a lot.

3- There has always been an imbalance in this community, and there still is. The higher-tier artists often don't look for critiques, rather just a way to show off their newest 'masterpiece', and they attract a lot of attention. And if you're a popular name on MT? Even more-so. The newest users or users still striving to up their skills through feedback and practice are the ones looking for those critiques, thought they won't receive them because the majority of the userbase will go to the more popular thread to post a quick 'this is awesome' or something of the sort, and the people looking for critiques often receive the same comments which does no good for them. I'll be honest, years of the AA made us lazy, and when the CC was brought in, nobody wanted to take any time to leave actual critiques even when they had the chance, and I'm no exception.


Overall: We really have nothing to lose here in terms of activity, and this could be a good move for older users and newer users. I'm cautious though, because actual critiques are sparse already, and for those that want them on this forum specifically, this could cause issues for them. I came up to fame during the years of the AA, and if you wanted a critique, you really had to dig for one. The good thing is, the more experienced artists are sometimes more willing to cough up a good critique. I'm still on the fence, and rather than voting yes or no, I'm just simply not voting. Plus the decision is made already, I see a positive outcome.

These are all my opinions from experience, so I mean, anyone's free to agree or oppose, lol.

Sutari
03-17-2013, 11:15 PM
I agree and sorta disagree with Gunz's agreeing and disagreeing. In a good way. I shall now copy him.


Agree:

1. Artist Alley was something to look forward too after coming back from work/classes (or just after waking up) because there were always around 6 artists that would update daily/every other day. That inspired newbies to also update and trade occasionally with the veteran artists (confidence giving etc etc). I would log onto MT and see updates from Cype/Chii/Taerl/Resalan/Seefy/Oops etc, and it would inspire me to make new art if i was in an artblock. So I guess its sentimental value?


Disagree (kinda):

1. Even though it was alot of ego stroking and praise, I can only say this about my own communications. I spent at least 4 years in Artist Alley and drew more than I ever have, BECAUSE of the critique I was getting (and having alot of free time). But 90&#37; because of the critique. It was reliable. In the beginning around 2006-07, I would get a praise/critique ratio of 20/80. I kept going because I could see it changing slowly when I would fix anatomy flaws and stuff. During artblocks or times with no inspiration, just browse other threads and look at artists you want to be like someday. MT was awesome because its community was really mellow and unique compared to other art forums.


Overall: I think you can have a mix of CC and AA by specifically asking for critique in your thread title, even though its in Artist Alley. I really do want to get involved again in this art community, but something about having two separate threads for art makes it just confusing/distasteful enough to go "well, i could just throw it on deviantART instead". (distasteful is a strong word, but i dont know another one to use instead OTL ) Only having one thread was nicer. There, I said it *flinches*

ClockHand
03-17-2013, 11:38 PM
I agree and disagree with Sutari agree and sorta disagree with Gunz agree and disagree.

Joking, I just wanted to say that but still I think there are some stuffs to think about it, regardless the discussion if we need a CC or an AA, and its: What do we (I'm going to exclude myself cuz I just can't care) want to be as community?

You want a forum with a gallery section (which we have, but now with one made as a forum)? You want to push rookie artist to get better? If so, how and in which direction? Do you want to focus in just making drawings? Illustrations? Concepts arts? Comics? etc.

I mean, if you have an idea of what you want it become easier to implement things in that direction so its community can start bend on that direction and give consistence to the forum.

Also I agree and disagree with any agreement or disagreement over my statement and its agree and disagreements.

GunZet
03-17-2013, 11:43 PM
http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/b/b3/Kevin-Butler-Mind-Blown.gif

NWAP
03-17-2013, 11:57 PM
I don't useaully say much, (wich could be part of the problem >-> ) but the way I see it, wether you agree or disagree, bringing back the AA isnt going to really "hurt" anything. Sure, we have other ways to post art...

Gunz:"...and users now get their own personal galleries by default, which are also displayed to the public via the front page of the forum."

Idk about you guys but... I hardly ever look at the front page. I useally dont take the time to look at the bottom of the page... I just zip to whatever topic I want to see.
I understand people want crits, and for the most part i like to give them, but after being on MT for about 7 years now...and trying to be consistant giving crits, you find yourself repeating to the SAME advice and crits over and over and over....AND over, to every new member that shows up. I think the older members that use to give such helpful advice and crits, just got tired. And to be honest, this is part of the the reason I think CC is so dead now.
So in the end I dont really have a solution for the CC, but as far as restoring the AA, the worst I can see thats going to happen is theres going to be more art on MT... so what reason is there really not to vote yes?

Celestial-Fox
03-18-2013, 03:02 AM
I know this sounds really short, but after reading all of this, I agree 100% with Rei. The only new thing I have to throw out there that no one has said yet (or at least specifically) is that I think it would be bestówhatever we decideóthat we have one or the other, not both. A CC and AA at the same time would only separate the art section further and cause unnecessary slowing in activity, I believe. Like Rei said, it would be frustrating to have two art threads, and if we had an AA, we could just ask for critique in the thread title.

My vote: Bring back the Artist's Alley; get rid of the Critique Corner entirely. Even if it's something as simple as changing the subforum title, so our threads don't disappear. But I wouldn't object to a clean start, eitherómaybe that's what we need around this place.

Sho
03-18-2013, 11:59 AM
I have a couple of points to make. One being about frontpage galleries vs. forum galleries, and the next being about having both a Critique Corner and Artist Alley at the same time.

There's a system in place that gives everyone their personal gallery and automatically displays pieces on the front-page. The problem with this being that, as NWAP said, not everyone takes the time to even visit those galleries. Most users go directly onto the forums because that's the place where things happen. At least, that's what we're used to. Right now it's not ideal for anyone. The active users get to go to the ghost town known as Critique Corner, and people stumbling upon this site get to go to the frontpage where literally nothing is happening either. This is probably because the site started out as -only- forum, and so the active users are used to going to these forums, not the frontpage. I think the switch to being more of a social hub instead of a forum was a really critical point for MT as a whole. This is why I think returning the Artist Alley instead of using the personal galleries we have now is a good move, because honestly, who can say they have seen this community improve as a result of the changes we've been going through?

Secondly, I don't see why we shouldn't have an Artist Alley and a Critique Corner at the same time. I've seen the suggestions of people requesting critique when they upload their pieces to their AA, and that's how it worked on the older forums ('CnC Appreciated!'). But in my eyes it wouldn't necessarily hurt the place to keep the Critique Corner, except to use it in a different fashion as it is being used now. While the Artist Alley would be a big collection of everyone's personal galleries where they upload most of their art, the Critique Corner would be a place to upload -only- pieces you want critique on. This way people won't be disappointed if they upload their pieces in the AA and don't get critique. People actually getting useful critique in the CC would be another thing, though. I think there can be a lot of arguing for either keeping or removing the Critique Corner.

GunZet
03-18-2013, 12:37 PM
We could easily keep both, but the problem is that most people would prefer to visit the AA as it's more a commoner's place. The CC would be... well, barren, at least that's how I'd see it turning out. I mean you could do some hardcore self promoting, but getting people to write a full-on critique is like pulling teeth sometimes, especially when we're all busy doin' our own thing.

The best choice I see is just reverting back to the AA, getting rid of the CC, and having people that want critiques do what whoever (I forgot, too lazy to go back and read) said, and state it in their thread titles, and that could be a guideline rule-- if you want critiques, request them in the title.

I think a piece-by-piece request method would work far better though, as they'd still get the comments of the general majority, and people wouldn't feel as bothered doing a critique for a single piece, rather than every piece. And I mean, crits don't have to be super huge paragraphs.

NWAP
03-18-2013, 02:50 PM
.... A CC and AA at the same time would only separate the art section further and cause unnecessary slowing in activity, I believe.... it would be frustrating to have two art threads


Um..What activity? I think we are pretty much at a crawl right now as it is :/ . I think we should throw CC and AA in together and let them fight to the death. I can't see myself becoming "frustrated" over where I should post my art...why not in both? I really don't see what we have to lose

Celestial-Fox
03-18-2013, 03:10 PM
Unnecessary slowing in the activity the AA would generate.

Linz
03-18-2013, 03:26 PM
What baffles me and continuously baffles me is for someone who apparently 'really can't care' always has his two cents to say in situations like these, and its usually not positive. What also baffles me is why this person sticks around if he 'really can't care' and has such a negative opinion on the forum as a whole. Yes, i'm talking to you, Clock.

Also, to people who are concerned with 'ego-stroking', insecure much? It happens everywhere, not just here. Deal with it. Grow a pair of balls, you don't need mummy to hold your hand and tell you that you're her special angel who never sucks. Art is about creating something beautiful and self expression, not about how many comments you get in a forum/website. If you like it and you've drawn it, be proud. Some art styles are more popular than others, it happens. Critique is not the be all and end all of art. Do more studies, enroll in a class, read books. But i'm crazy for even insinuating that you have to work to get praise, right?!

JJJorgie
03-18-2013, 03:47 PM
I really don't see the big problems with bringing in the AA. A lot of people are saying that it will pretty much drown out the CC, but the CC might as well be dead. What's the harm of adding a new section that has the potential to spark some life back into this forum? There will still be users that will continue to critique and help other users if asked or requested.

Black_Shaggie
03-18-2013, 03:52 PM
I'm sorry, bring back what now?

Linz
03-18-2013, 03:54 PM
GAWD SHAGGIE YOU'RE SUCH A NEWB

GunZet
03-18-2013, 04:01 PM
AA was the sexy, basically, we're bringing the sexy back.

Linz
03-18-2013, 04:02 PM
YEAH.

Black_Shaggie
03-18-2013, 05:51 PM
GAWD SHAGGIE YOU'RE SUCH A NEWB

True. But I'm also cooler than the ice caps on Pluto. Can you dig it?

Yeah I've only been here for like 2 yrs. 1 solid year so...I guess my noob status is legit. We're talking about the Artists Alley what's that? Another forum geared toward more artisticly focused discussions? I'm down for that.

Sylux
03-18-2013, 05:54 PM
What baffles me and continuously baffles me is for someone who apparently 'really can't care' always has his two cents to say in situations like these, and its usually not positive. What also baffles me is why this person sticks around if he 'really can't care' and has such a negative opinion on the forum as a whole. Yes, i'm talking to you, Clock.

He's a member and he's entitled to voice his opinion. If it baffles you that Clock doesn't care for much of the forum but stays around because there are a few members here he considers friends and has fun with then you've no manner of insight to speak of. If it baffles you that somebody may say one thing but do another then you've no experience with humans and their innate nature to speak of.


Also, to people who are concerned with 'ego-stroking', insecure much? It happens everywhere, not just here. Deal with it. Grow a pair of balls, you don't need mummy to hold your hand and tell you that you're her special angel who never sucks. Art is about creating something beautiful and self expression, not about how many comments you get in a forum/website. If you like it and you've drawn it, be proud. Some art styles are more popular than others, it happens. Critique is not the be all and end all of art. Do more studies, enroll in a class, read books. But i'm crazy for even insinuating that you have to work to get praise, right?!

The issue is not insecurity. As I stated, the majority of comments in my thread were compliments. I receive massive praise from my best bro Brian and all my Facebook friends. I can't even count on my hands how many people I don't even really know have liked my pictures and commented positive things between Deviantart and Facebook. So no, it's definitely not insecurity. It's the lack of criticism and growth. Last night I just received the best critique I've ever gotten in my entire life, and it was only one of an easily countable number of good critiques I've ever gotten, and I've been here for 6 years. Some of us do heaps of studies and read heaps of books, but human interaction is what really cultivates artistic growth. Classes are expensive and not everyone can afford those kinds of things just for human interaction and getting help from other people. Thus forums are born, am I right? Yes, I am, that's not a real question. Forums are created for people who share similar interests to share their experience and knowledge and help each other out, not to suck each others' e-dicks. But I'm crazy for even insinuating that a person can expect criticism on a forum dedicated to it, right?!

Linz
03-18-2013, 06:09 PM
Hey, at least you admitted you're crazy. First step to rehabilitation. (:

Sylux
03-18-2013, 06:28 PM
uwu I can't wait to be sane again

Linz
03-18-2013, 06:30 PM
It's okay, you can do it! ~<3

Sylux
03-18-2013, 07:31 PM
I'm so lucky to have such supportive friends uguu~!

Rio
03-18-2013, 08:45 PM
lol Wow. Looks like we don't have to wait till Wednesday after all! Okays - time to bring the sexy back...

----

The deed is done.

:munches on popcorn:

I wonder who'll post first....

Linz
03-18-2013, 09:23 PM
FABULOUS~

Thank you Rio!!

Rio
03-18-2013, 09:29 PM
No probems! I'm voting on you to get your artwork up first Linz. I hope you don't disappoint... unless someone here has the guts to take her on. ; )

JJJorgie
03-18-2013, 09:40 PM
Ooops, dang, looks like I accidently accepted the challenge.

Rio
03-18-2013, 09:45 PM
lol I'm sure you can hold your own. I mean Linz can be a formidable opponent but you can be the David to her Goliath. ...But only if she takes my comments seriously and slings back some mud. :p

Linz
03-18-2013, 09:46 PM
I WAS ALMOST THERE. I WAS BEHIND BY LIKE TWO MINUTES.

I had to upload pics! ;_;

theAnimeRebel
03-19-2013, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Linz
What baffles me and continuously baffles me is for someone who apparently 'really can't care' always has his two cents to say in situations like these, and its usually not positive. What also baffles me is why this person sticks around if he 'really can't care' and has such a negative opinion on the forum as a whole. Yes, i'm talking to you, Clock.

He's a member and he's entitled to voice his opinion. If it baffles you that Clock doesn't care for much of the forum but stays around because there are a few members here he considers friends and has fun with then you've no manner of insight to speak of. If it baffles you that somebody may say one thing but do another then you've no experience with humans and their innate nature to speak of.

Yeah but this ain't huggy-chummy facebook bro, if a person is on a forum, yet pretty much disagrees with the very purpose of the forum... well, maybe they need a different forum. *Off-topic, ahem* (Anyways Linz, you are my new best friend)

As for the critique thing, at first I thought this was well, extremely redundant but now I can kind off see where we're going with this. I mean, the "gallery" feature is often times buggy, and nobody looks at them anyways. Where else do you dump random sketches and doodles and crap and stuff? At this point though, the state of the "critigue corner" is unsaveable... you should just rename it "Artists Arena" and build a new critique corner. *problem solved* :cat_hmp:

Sylux
03-19-2013, 04:16 PM
Huggy chummy facebook? You must have never met a teenaged girl. They spit venom.

theAnimeRebel
03-19-2013, 04:22 PM
Aaah, you have found me out. *sobs* So CRUEL Sylux, how did you know I've never talked to a girl my age?

Linz
03-19-2013, 04:23 PM
Sylux don't talk about yourself like that :c

Sylux
03-19-2013, 07:46 PM
I'm sorry I know it's bad to talk about yourself poorly please grant me forgiveness

Demonfyre
03-19-2013, 07:51 PM
Aaah, you have found me out. *sobs* So CRUEL Sylux, how did you know I've never talked to a girl my age?

They eat eyes for nutrition.

JJJorgie
03-19-2013, 09:16 PM
They eat eyes for nutrition.

Tis true.