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jubeh
07-27-2012, 03:51 PM
I'm curious about your opinions about suicide. Whether euthanasia is okay, or if suicide in itself is immoral to you. If somebody in you know has committed suicide how did it effect you personally?

Please treat the subject with sensitivity and do not submit posts based on how people would react if you killed yourself.

Hayashida
07-27-2012, 05:28 PM
While no one I know well has committed suicide, I feel it's kind of a selfish thing to do for the most part. It often causes much distress and suffering for people who deeply cared about and loved that person. Although sometimes the person might kill themselves because they think no one cares about them. It's hard to say anything about it in a general manner since there is so many different situations wherein someone might do this.

toast
07-27-2012, 05:54 PM
I support euthenasia if, say, it's a really old person thats bed ridden, or a person that has a terminal illness thats either slowly killing them or subjecting them to horrible pain for the rest of their life. Otherwise, if they're suicidal due to their life not going as they planned (lost job, wife, bullying, they hate themselves), I think it's obvious we should help them. The thing they need the most is attention and help.

I don't think suicide is selfish at all. A lot of the times, the person wanting to commit suicide pretty much thinks everyone will be happier without them. Thats why I think if someone's depressed, you have to show them that you care for them. :/

Outcast
07-27-2012, 06:23 PM
Considered it a couple of times, but then decided I'd rather not cause any grief to my grandma at all.

GunZet
07-27-2012, 06:54 PM
Considered it a couple of times, but then decided I'd rather not cause any grief to my grandma at all.

Pretty much this, and then you have to realize that yea sometimes it may be selfish, but not always.
Sometimes that person is just living in their own hell, and honestly, to think it's selfish of them to want to release themselves from said 'personal hell' is selfish.
Somebody who hasn't lost everything is still more than capable of rational thinking, and knows the collateral cost. It's how you weigh that that determines the outcome of whether they do it or don't.

AlmanacnamedTime
07-27-2012, 09:13 PM
I support euthenasia if, say, it's a really old person thats bed ridden, or a person that has a terminal illness thats either slowly killing them or subjecting them to horrible pain for the rest of their life. Otherwise, if they're suicidal due to their life not going as they planned (lost job, wife, bullying, they hate themselves), I think it's obvious we should help them. The thing they need the most is attention and help.

This^.
I think that suicide can be for what the person thinks is a good reason. I think though, that suicide is wrong simply because if you were gifted with life, it seems that you could do your best to turn it around and make something that your family wouldn't grieve over.

JJJorgie
07-27-2012, 09:24 PM
I do believe it's usually a selfish thing with the only exceptions being like purposely declining painful, sickening treatment for a disease that will kill you later anysway. Most people that commit suivide cause they think believe that their lives are hell, don't do anything to fix their lives. But of course, this is jist my opinion.

Inksprout
07-27-2012, 09:39 PM
Can you really call it a selfish act if its the result of a serious mental illness such as depression? You wouldn't say its selfish of someone to die from a physical illness, so what makes mental illness different?

ClockHand
07-27-2012, 09:43 PM
Most people that commit suivide cause they think believe that their lives are hell, don't do anything to fix their lives. But of course, this is jist my opinion.

No, someone who is willing to commit suicide see life as something worst than death, which is in a perspective, reasonable to fear life. The thing is that its not voluntary, you don't think "from now on I'm going to consider suicide". Its a chemistry disorder on your brain, that its commonly generated by depression and you start seeing suicide as a possible option to deal with your problems (not monetary, but emotional).

And it is selfish, because you are thinking in your own life and death. People who actually commit suicide, have the tendency to tell their family the reasons and to not feel bad about their decision, this is because, even so suicide is selfish, they understand what their families and friend might feel after, but life, their emotional problems, are so heavy they can't really defeat and living one more day is a nightmare. So ya, it's selfish, but the people who do it are aware of the people around them, is just that their problems are bigger for them.

I feel this subject must be deal by people who have been depressed to the point they have considered suicide, as I feel, no one who haven't been in a heavy depression would understand.

Inksprout
07-27-2012, 09:52 PM
When someone has a chemical imbalance that makes them feel that way don't you think it puts them beyond labels like 'selfish'? As you said, people don't become depressed/mentally ill by choice and their thoughts are so far beyond what is 'normal' that its as if the decision is out of their hands. They need others to step up and intervene so they can receive treatment. It seems to me like mental illness such as depression is a potentially fatal illness, where the cause of death is suicide. Sure, its selfish if someone who is fine mentally decides they don't want to live any more but I think there is a point where it goes beyond being selfish and is just being unwell.

GunZet
07-27-2012, 09:53 PM
Not to mention some suicides can lead to chain suicides. If you have a room full of mentally ill/depressed people all connected emotionally to each other, and one decides to break from the link, the rest may deteriorate as well. Rare, but it's happened. Suicide isn't only an instant escape, but a gamble.

ClockHand
07-27-2012, 09:58 PM
As I said, most people willing to commit suicide are aware of the repercussions, but it is selfish because they are placing their interest beyond others, in this case their familly and friends feelings and emotional stability, even more, you could say that by the suicide of one person, probably some familiar might get depressed as well, and so a chain a depression suicide might happen (really weird to happen) and so by the selfish act of taking your own life you basically screwed everyone else lifes.

But as I said, you don't chose to get depressed, and there is a lot of people who can't get "better" (better is kinda of a weird word when you talk this subject) and they are forced their entire life to medicaments, drugs and therapy, which finally you ask yourself "This is how my life is going to be?".

The final action, it is selfish, but the people doing it are aware of it, its just that their problem are bigger ( as I said), and I don't feel that suicide is actually a consequence of depression, it is more the option you take to deal with it.

jubeh
07-27-2012, 10:00 PM
Would it still be selfish if the person had no ties to anybody else.

ClockHand
07-27-2012, 10:06 PM
Really hard to happen, but I guess no one would give a fuck.

So you should do it james.

GunZet
07-27-2012, 10:06 PM
As complex as it is, whether a person suicides or not looks a lot like this:
http://chaudharylaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/law-school-277x300.jpg
Personal anguish on the left, consideration of the consequences on the right (or whatever)

Whichever weighs heavier usually determines the outcome, and I've been at this point before. It's definitely not fun.

As for depression, it's not guaranteed a depressed person will suicide. Suicide is just a side effect of severe despression and anxiety, and it really just opens the channel for suicidal thoughts, not the action itself necessarily.

ClockHand
07-27-2012, 10:10 PM
I don't consider the idea of the balance a good analogy, as probably living is the worst consequence if you really want to kill yourself. You don't really evaluate things like that, you just think "I can't live another more day", because living become a nightmare, and every second is just a torture.

So if you use a balance analogy, you would have at one side, well the anxiety, depression and on the other side, if you can really take another day more of living or not. It's really complicate, you don't evaluate things at a balance, but rather like blowing a balloon, there is a point when its going to explote.

GunZet
07-27-2012, 10:12 PM
I made that analogy through experience. There came a point where I was ready to die, and I really just sat back and thought about it, weighed it out. If I left, everything would come crashing down for the family because it'd be a heavy tragedy, so is it worth it to keep living? Not really, it still sucks like hell and hurts, but what'd be even worse would be to break my family in the process. So that's where the balance thing came from; my own personal experience.

I can't say the process is the same for all people though. Like you said, some just live a hellish nightmare and want out.

ClockHand
07-27-2012, 10:16 PM
Ya, but not everyone sit down to evaluate the situation, most people just can't handle it anymore, and this latest is the most common. But ya, everyone deals it differently, or experienced differently.

Inksprout
07-27-2012, 10:29 PM
Clock, are you also speaking from personal experience? Or from people that you've known?

ClockHand
07-27-2012, 10:38 PM
you might never know.

Inksprout
07-27-2012, 10:43 PM
:P well its fine if you don't want to tell me. It just sounds like you're speaking from a more knowledgeable point of view and I wondered if you were basing it off things that you have experienced personally or through someone close to you, or if its just your view of the issue. I my self haven't really been in that position, so that's where my ideas come from. I've been in positions before where I have seen others going through similar stuff begin to self harm and consider suicide, but I never did. So that's why I think mental illness is such a strong influence on whether or not someone will try to take their life. To me it seems like someone who is mentally healthy can make it through the same tough times without considering it. What Gunzet said about depression being a gateway to those thoughts makes a lot of sense to me.

Outcast
07-27-2012, 11:46 PM
When you have people who care about you then yeah it's pretty damn selfish.

GunZet
07-28-2012, 12:07 AM
There's really no way to not consider it selfish to some degree, since suicide is about... self.
I guess you could always make a suicide pact, or go to one of those mass-suicide things that's hip these days, if you really don't wanna be selfish.
Just remember, wait until everyone else drinks first.

jubeh
07-28-2012, 12:18 AM
In ancient japan suicide was a way to retain the honor of ones family and possibly the least selfish thing a person could do. Thoughts?

GunZet
07-28-2012, 12:33 AM
Oh yeaaaaa I forgot all about that. Well, I guess culture could also be a factor as to what people think of it.

Outcast
07-28-2012, 01:39 AM
In ancient japan suicide was a way to retain the honor of ones family and possibly the least selfish thing a person could do. Thoughts?

Personal honor too though too right?

Lucy
07-28-2012, 05:06 AM
I'm kind of an advocate for people being able to choose to commit suicide, sorry if that offends anyone. People indicate that it's selfish to kill yourself, but I personally think it's more selfish to ask a person that doesn't want to live to spend a lifetime going through all the hardships life entails. Although I think anyone considering suicide needs to at least give something back for the care, love and concern they've gotten through their life and for all the damage they'll cause by offing themselves, as well as paying off financial debts and so forth first.


In ancient japan suicide was a way to retain the honor of ones family and possibly the least selfish thing a person could do. Thoughts?That was an established cultural thing. Admitting that you messed up somewhere down the line and saying "I accept that, I deserve death and I'm going to face it bravely." But here and now, we don't have such a rigorous focus on concepts like honor in our day to day lives. It'd be a confusing gesture and I'm not sure there's a lot of situations where you could actually kill yourself and have it considered redeeming, because we don't have much precedent for honorable suicide in modern society. I think it would probably be much preferred in most cultures nowadays if someone were to atone for their actions in some way.

jubeh
07-28-2012, 10:21 PM
That was a well put response.

We do sort of have a precedence for honorable suicide but we call it self-sacrifice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruistic_suicide). Thought whether sacrificing yourself is really considered suicide is arguable.

ClockHand
07-28-2012, 10:29 PM
Martyrs

WhenRabbitsAttack
07-29-2012, 02:48 AM
i don't believe in suicide. apologies to anyone who's considered it, but i really don't. suicide is a way to leave behind the daily torture of life, from what i've read here. life is so painful that its not worth living, correct? i can respect that you wouldn't want to put up with that if your life is really that horrible. but if you are strong enough to live even a few more days, then you would have proved to your self that you are stronger than you thought. and that strength could be used to try and make your life better, in any way possible.

and people who commit suicide to escape things they've done are cowardly. if they really want to atone for making somone else's life worse or for taking somone else life, they should try and make other's lives better. because if they kill themselves because they think that the loss of their life will atone, they're wrong. being dead you can't ever hurt anyone again, but you can't ever help anyone again either. you becone complete neutral when if you had lived, there could have been things you could have done that won't get a chance to happen.

GunZet
07-29-2012, 03:53 AM
Most people change their minds on things like that until they've experienced it themselves, but before that, if you've had no education in psychology and how severe depression and anxieties work, you can only form outside opinions on how you think it should go.
Not saying that those people who have never and will never come to the point of thinking suicidal thought can't have an opinion, I respect that.
But as said before, it's a mental illness, not an attribute chosen. Nobody chooses depression, maybe except if you wanna fit in, but that's called being an emo, and most of them don't mean it.

Outcast
07-29-2012, 04:36 AM
i don't believe in suicide. apologies to anyone who's considered it, but i really don't. suicide is a way to leave behind the daily torture of life, from what i've read here. life is so painful that its not worth living, correct? i can respect that you wouldn't want to put up with that if your life is really that horrible. but if you are strong enough to live even a few more days, then you would have proved to your self that you are stronger than you thought. and that strength could be used to try and make your life better, in any way possible.

and people who commit suicide to escape things they've done are cowardly. if they really want to atone for making somone else's life worse or for taking somone else life, they should try and make other's lives better. because if they kill themselves because they think that the loss of their life will atone, they're wrong. being dead you can't ever hurt anyone again, but you can't ever help anyone again either. you becone complete neutral when if you had lived, there could have been things you could have done that won't get a chance to happen.

Do you know what it's like to completely despise yourself?

Psy
07-29-2012, 05:49 PM
The movie seven pounds is a relevant movie to this thread and for comiting suicide to regain honor or redemption.

There are people who are in so much pain and suffering so damn much that doctors have to make them drug addicts for them to get by and live. They are so high that they can't drive or work and some can't even be awake for more than a few hours a day. It's it allways the result of a medical condition it can be a result of trauma like a car accident or such. They are alive but really is that living? Is being a prisoner in your own body better than being dead? Is it better to be in such excruciating pain that you can't even gt out of bed a life you would WANT? It's not to me.
For people like that isint it humane to let them choose death rather than telling them "No you can wait." like a parent telling a 5yr old to wait to go to the bathroom? Maybe a bad or horrible analogy but it's pretty much the same IMO.

I have suffered depression and anxiety since I was little and have thought of suicide many many times but never went thru with it. I was at one point having a panick/anxiety attack every day for two months straight. The simplest way I can describe an anxiety attack is you know that feeling you get when you go on a roller coaster or really fast over a small hill in the car and you feel your stomach lift and it's like butterflies in your stomach? Ok take that feeling and don't let it stop for at least an hour. Now add to that thoughts that keep telling you that something is wrong with you and that you are going to die from what ever you can think of. You become hyper aware of your heat beat or breathing or any part of your body and start to think that it's not normal. For me it's usually my heart and I'm convinced that I'm having a heart attack (even tho I'm pretty much healthy) or a blood clot in my leg because I have a random twitch and a pain in my right leg. Then it gets harder to breathe and you get dizzy and you don't know why and it could be a punctured lung or heart attack or anything you see on web MD.
Not a fun way to live.
As for getting on medications. When you see some one for depression or anxiety they usually throw pills at you. The thing with pills is that there isint one kind that works for everyone. There are hundreds out there. They are trying to balance the chemicals in your brain or what ever but could be throwing them out of whack even more so. When you start an anti depression pill you have to try it for at least a month to possibly get the full benefit from it BUT it may not be the right one for you and before you even go the 30 days you may have attempted suicide. If you failed they will put you on a new one but who knows if the other one has left your system yet and the new one could be the right one but the old one is not making it seem so. I do think pills help some but it isint for everyone.
Telling some one who is suicidal to be strong is insulting and probably more of a push to go thru with it than anything because in their head if they were stronger than they wouldn't feel this way.
As long as it doesn't interfere with the lives of others as in you went thru with it and did it infront of a crowd or did it by jumping off a bridge into traffic and causing more deaths then it's your choice. Just try to involve other people as little as possible.

This is just what I know and feel from personal exp and reading.

WhenRabbitsAttack
07-30-2012, 01:49 AM
Do you know what it's like to completely despise yourself?
completely despise? no.
my emotions are sort of like oil and water. the darker feelings sink to the bottom (water) and the lighter ones rise to the top (oil) but when the oil is washed away, i end up feeling like i'm going to drown myself in all the shame, hatred and disgust that i know i shouldn't have.

JJJorgie
07-30-2012, 02:11 AM
I know I'll probably get pounded for saying this, but this is my personal opinion and I'm not trying to cause a fight or persuade anyone into thinking my way. I speak from experience. I've been in severe depressions and considered suicide before. I don't believe that depression is a mental illness, I believe that it's a feeling. Just like I don't believe ADHD is an illness, I just believe that some kids are more hyper than others. I think that calling depression a mental illness is like making an excuse for a person to act depressed and possibly commit suicide. Again, I don't mean to offend anyone, it's just my opinion.

ClockHand
07-30-2012, 12:06 PM
Good thing that the determination of mental illness are not made under the observation of believe or not believe.

JJJorgie
07-30-2012, 02:34 PM
Clock, you forget that this thread is titled "Thoughts on Suicide" which is what I posted, my thoughts about suicide. Excuse me for not having the same ideas about the subject as you. You also forget that our medical system is not perfect, absolute, or completely correct.

ClockHand
07-30-2012, 02:39 PM
You also forget that our medical system is not perfect, absolute, or completely correct.

And is neither determinate by the belief of an unarticulated feeling.

Black_Shaggie
07-30-2012, 02:43 PM
I think folks are focusing on individuals who do have a chemical imbalance or some other form of mental illness. I do agree that those who are clinically depressed are more suspect of committing suicide & that their emotional support groups are supposed to notice when things are getting to that point but oftentimes, its too late to save them. I don't think that it's selfish when this happens only sad.

Now what about the person who decides to commit suicide as a reaction to something that they've done or had done to them?

JJJorgie
07-30-2012, 03:13 PM
And is neither determinate by the belief of an unarticulated feeling.

The definition of perfection is being free of flaws. Our medical system is not free of flaws, for example people get misdiagnosed all the time, there aren't cures for every disease, etc.

ClockHand
07-30-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't believe that depression is a mental illness, I believe that it's a feeling. Just like I don't believe ADHD is an illness, I just believe that some kids are more hyper than others. I think that calling depression a mental illness is like making an excuse for a person to act depressed and possibly commit suicide. Again, I don't mean to offend anyone, it's just my opinion.

We are not talking about how perfect is the diagnostics for illness or if the medical system has no flaws, rather than that, we are talking that you are saying that depression is not a mental illness (or mental imbalance) and so ADHD. I feel the latest is easier to understand why people don't believe on it as many people have used and self diagnostics with it without even knowing what it is, but trust me, there is people who really can't take attention and its really hard to approach them. But depression is real and you don't chose to get depressed, and if you have been on depression then you know that you didn't chose it, neither the thoughts you had in that moment.

And even if you try not to offend people, by saying that depression is a excuse for suicide is actually a really offensive thing to say, as depression is a real imbalance on the chemistry of your brain. It's real, and is not something made by psychiatric, so is not something determined by a "belief", and even so diagnostics can be flawed, it doesn't make depression, as a subject, less serious or real.

Also a feeling is product of the chemistry on your brain. By saying "I don't believe its a illness, but rather a feeling", you are almost saying that feelings have nothing to do with brain chemistry, which is the opposite and as I said, its considered a brain imbalance, as you are not producing the proper balance of chemistry on the brain and provoking this "feeling".

JJJorgie
07-30-2012, 03:45 PM
When I said I'm not trying to offend anyone, I meant that I'm not blatantly out to hurt others. Of course, some people will get offended, that's what opinions do, they offend people.

There go you, now you've actually explain your point in an understandable way.

I didn't say depression was less serious. But looking back at my post it's a bit confusing. I'm definitely not saying that depression doesn't exist. What I mean is that by saying it's a disorder, is making an excuse less for the people that commited suicide, and more for the people that didn't. Saying that a suicidal person has a disorder that cause them to act the way they do makes it easier to take the blame off of the people that didn't try to help the suicidal/depressed person overcome their feelings. Does that make more sense now?

jubeh
07-30-2012, 03:46 PM
Yeah but it's kind of awful sounding.

Outcast
07-30-2012, 04:16 PM
Most people who know me probably wouldn't be able to guess that I was depressed. It's not like you can magically tell what's going on in another's head. So yeah saying people use it as an excuse is pretty fucking offensive.

Hayashida
07-30-2012, 04:18 PM
Depression is both a mental and physical condition. It's medically documented as an existing condition. So don't you feel daft saying it's not a real thing and only something someone made up to feel sad?

Inksprout
07-30-2012, 07:43 PM
Saying that a suicidal person has a disorder that cause them to act the way they do makes it easier to take the blame off of the people that didn't try to help the suicidal/depressed person overcome their feelings. Does that make more sense now?


If anything I think a diagnosis is supposed to have the opposite effect. It's meant to give the person with the mental illness a way to explain what's wrong to others. It gives others a better understanding of what sufferers could be going through and makes it easier for them to get information on how to help people they know who are going through a mental illness. The point of making up defined illnesses and diagnosing people is to make it easier to provide information and treatment to people.

JJJorgie
07-30-2012, 07:50 PM
That's very true! I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think that depression should try to be cured by medicine that will artificially make a person happy for a little while. I think people need to, instead, show care and love for the depressed person.

Demonfyre
07-30-2012, 07:58 PM
If anything I think a diagnosis is supposed to have the opposite effect. It's meant to give the person with the mental illness a way to explain what's wrong to others. It gives others a better understanding of what sufferers could be going through and makes it easier for them to get information on how to help people they know who are going through a mental illness. The point of making up defined illnesses and diagnosing people is to make it easier to provide information and treatment to people.

Was struggling for a way to word it but Inksprout describes my feelings on this subject well :) I also agree that in minor cases 'happiness' in the form of a drug shouldn't be used as a tactic to stop depression, it has very little benefit in the long term, especially if you consider the damage to some of the receptors in their brain which the drug is likely to be acting upon, an exception being if the situation is dire however in which case it should be permitted for usage.

Sorry, it would appear I gave more of an opinion on the pharmaceutical side of things :L

Hayashida
07-30-2012, 08:35 PM
That's very true! I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think that depression should try to be cured by medicine that will artificially make a person happy for a little while. I think people need to, instead, show care and love for the depressed person.
Listen, I don't think you understand what depression is. It's a physical and mental disorder. That means that trying to make that person feel better isn't going to work. Medicine doesn't "artificially" make someone happy, whatever that means. It helps to alleviate the
symptoms of depression so that person will feel better.

I honestly have no idea why so many people are against modern medicine.

jubeh
07-30-2012, 10:42 PM
That's very true! I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think that depression should try to be cured by medicine that will artificially make a person happy for a little while. I think people need to, instead, show care and love for the depressed person.

I'm not considering suicide and probably not depressed but when people show care and love for me it upsets me so what if I were depressed/suicidal. What then?

Edit: John its just ignorance. That and bad sci-fi movies where somebody tries to "play god" and it goes wrong. Playing god doesn't usually go wrong in real life which is why we have airplanes, medicine, and air conditioning.

GunZet
07-30-2012, 11:04 PM
Why is this not letting me post my damn comment, hold up, testing.

Edit: What a shame, anyways.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7020/scrcap.jpg

jubeh
08-03-2012, 11:04 PM
I asked before but only got kind of a joke answer but I want to know how people really feel.

It was stated many times that suicide is inherently selfish but what about people with no ties to anybody? Then does it simply become a choice to shed your mortal coil or is it still sinister? What if, in an outrageous scenario, somebody was hated by all the world?

Inksprout
08-04-2012, 12:25 AM
In the first case, where someone has no ties to anyone, I guess you could see it as selfish in that they would be depriving the world of what ever potential they have has an individual to make things better. For example if someone is a genius with the potential to make important discoveries in science (or they may have already made important discoveries which they haven't revealed) you could definitely see it as selfish if they kill themselves instead of staying alive and working on research 'for the greater good'.

As for someone who is universally hated there are a few ways of looking at it, if they are just hated by everyone for being a really bad person then I guess it would be somewhat altrusitic of them to kill themselves. This brings up another interesting question though: Is it still selfish if you kill yourself if, because of a mental health problem, you think everyone hates you?

However if you are a person that everyone hates, but you have an important job you are doing, one that helps people, then it would still be selfish to kill yourself, since you would be trying to escape from hatred at the cost of the important work you are doing. Kind of like in Batman when people think he is a criminal. Even though people dislike him and think he is a criminal he still fights crime instead of giving up on being Batman.

Outcast
08-04-2012, 12:45 AM
Yeah that's fine. Rather depressing, but fine.

Alexander_Hamilton
08-04-2012, 12:53 AM
I'm really not comfortable with the whole 'suicide is selfish' narrative. The people who are considering suicide generally do so because they hate themselves and their life. The absolute worse thing you can do to someone in that position is shame them more. "Oh, you're considering suicide because you hate yourself? Wow, you're so weak and selfish."

I think it's safe to say that most people who commit suicide don't WANT to commit suicide, really. They have problems in their life and in how their mind works which makes them feel that suicide is the only option. If they had the choice between fixing issues in their life and themselves or suicide, the vast majority would choose the former.

I don't see committing suicide as a moral issue in the sense of it having an effect on others.

Inksprout
08-04-2012, 12:57 AM
Yeah I have to agree with you, I really have trouble with the notion of it being selfish, as I tried to explain earlier in the thread.

ClockHand
08-04-2012, 01:15 AM
I'm really not comfortable with the whole 'suicide is selfish' narrative. The people who are considering suicide generally do so because they hate themselves and their life. The absolute worse thing you can do to someone in that position is shame them more. "Oh, you're considering suicide because you hate yourself? Wow, you're so weak and selfish."

I think it's safe to say that most people who commit suicide don't WANT to commit suicide, really. They have problems in their life and in how their mind works which makes them feel that suicide is the only option. If they had the choice between fixing issues in their life and themselves or suicide, the vast majority would choose the former.

I don't see committing suicide as a moral issue in the sense of it having an effect on others.

You know about people who think like: "why no one loves MY?", "MY life sucks" or "Why things have to be like this for MY?"? Obviously, we can't go and tell people "Oh you selfish bastard who only think about yourself", even more because we are not different from them we all have very egomaniac thoughts about ourselves, but the thing is, for some reason suicide is an ego attitude that over come the it and the super ego on an inaccurate image of own self worth (again, MY MY MY value), it basically challenges those for the sake of what the ego wants or its own value, and to be honest, is kinda the ultimate selfish thing as it overcome the super ego for a false ego that its unworthy under the values placed by the super ego and finally making believe the persona that his/her value is equal or better dead.

But ya, not all the suicide cases are the same and is not fault of the person to have depression. It's like blaming someone with cancer for having cancer, its just being an asshole. But there is a relationship between Ego, It and Super Ego (I know the names changed, but I don't know them on English) and in some cases, which are many, its the ego who take the decision here, reason why suicide has been determinate as a egocentric attitude. Some authors talk about false ego, the deployment, and other stuffs, but sadly I haven't read enough of this, so someone who knows this subject better could say something.

Demonfyre
08-04-2012, 12:59 PM
I think it's safe to say that most people who commit suicide don't WANT to commit suicide, really. They have problems in their life and in how their mind works which makes them feel that suicide is the only option. If they had the choice between fixing issues in their life and themselves or suicide, the vast majority would choose the former.

I would just like to throw in that if someone is wanting to commit suicide they usually go ahead and do so, rarely would you find a suicidal person who doesn't want to truely kill themselves (yes there are doubts but in the end they generally have made up their mind). Usually you find that If someone is suicidal but doesn't want commit the act that they tend to express this through self harm and means such as that in the hopes that the problem will resolve or by chance someone will notice and they won't have to end their life. Other than that I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

@Clock - You raise some interesting points there I must say

TheVermillionFox
08-08-2012, 04:59 AM
While no one I know well has committed suicide, I feel it's kind of a selfish thing to do for the most part. It often causes much distress and suffering for people who deeply cared about and loved that person. Although sometimes the person might kill themselves because they think no one cares about them. It's hard to say anything about it in a general manner since there is so many different situations wherein someone might do this.

My thoughts exactly.

Delphinus
08-18-2012, 09:53 AM
If you don't have the choice whether you live or die, what meaning do your other choices have?

BozeSG
08-18-2012, 01:17 PM
someone close to me tried to commit suicide just about a year ago. the asshole tried to stab himself in the heart but either the knife was too dull or he wasn't strong enough so it didn't cut through to get to his heart. after his parents found out about it they spent months and months shitting their pants worried he might do it again. they locked the rooftop door, took all the sharp objects out of the kitchen and did not let him go out of the house, which made it even worse for him.

now the thing is that him commiting suicide is not surprising, he had hit rock-bottom has a human being and his life was pathetic. but he didn't do it because of that, to my disappointment i found out he actually did it for love. now, euthanasia is another story but when you have a healthy mind and body, you still have a great potential for influencing the world. heck, if you don't care for your life at all, try to use it to save others atleast; then you wouldn't be a pathetic human being when you leave the world. thoughts of suicide only come after huge shocks that damages one aspect of your life permanently, it makes you think that every single thing in life is over. but when you actually look at the big picture it's the most stupid thing and the worst decision you can make in life.

if you hate your life then change it, it's a thousand times better than losing it.

yrowre
08-20-2012, 10:42 AM
to my disappointment i found out he actually did it for love.

You know, reaching a mindstate like that takes quite a lot of years. The real reason is usually not one thing, but lots of them that piles up. It's like having a headache: you lose your temper more easily, and you're told you are unreasonable. And that makes you even more frustrated.

And if he is really close to you, you could at least try to think about what pulls him in that state and find a way to solve them. Hard? Then leave the problem as it is, most of the people does that anyway, but don't be surprised if he developes even worse behavior. Telling someone to be useful at least is rarely does any good. It sounds like you don't care at all. Besides many times expectations are the best cause for suicide. And what if he hates the world? Why should he feel like wanting to help anyone then?

And since he made his parents to find his (expected) corpse it's more like a revenge on his parents too. And they reacted with shutting him in... Sorry for saying this, but do you really expect a gloomy suicide guy to cheer up and get better when he is shutted in, with his gloomy thoughts making rounds and rounds again in his head??? At least did they change anything in their own relationship with their son, or are they just waiting to things solve themselves?

And one more opinion that may help understanding gloomy people (though I'm not a suicidal type either and I'm actually optimistic who likes being happy and all smile):

If you ever had a bad mood for more than some hours, you may noticed that you can't think logically in that state. Your thoughts are all sad and all you think that can help you is sad music and speaking/reading about sad things. Thouh it sucks you even more into the bad mood. If you have anything that can made you feel better (like friends or hobbies) you can get out, but what if you dont have it?
Then try imagining that dark mood is your normal everyday state.

But don't misunderstand me, suicidal people can be hard to convince and I don't blame anyone who don't want to do it. Usually I don't do it either, as long as it's not a close friend.

jubeh
09-14-2012, 12:06 PM
If you guys knew somebody was intending to commit suicide what would you say to them

ClockHand
09-14-2012, 12:28 PM
Make me a sandwich.

GunZet
09-14-2012, 01:59 PM
I have a friend contemplating suicide right now. I just give him the usual pick-me-up and basically say 'stay alive'.

jubeh
09-14-2012, 05:20 PM
Make me a sandwich.

That's interesting why would you say that?


I have a friend contemplating suicide right now. I just give him the usual pick-me-up and basically say 'stay alive'.

Do you think that is enough?

GunZet
09-14-2012, 06:24 PM
No, there's nothing I can really do if he truly wants to kill himself, but I wont just sit back and watch.

Black_Shaggie
09-18-2012, 11:28 AM
No, there's nothing I can really do if he truly wants to kill himself, but I wont just sit back and watch.


Exactly. I'd do everything in my power...shit I'd put my bud on sucide watch if need be. But I just couldn't let them loose that 3rd man without trying to stop them.

Moonlightx
12-16-2012, 03:22 PM
If you guys knew somebody was intending to commit suicide what would you say to them
I wouldn't say one of those cheesy things like "Stay alive. I want you to know we love you and we will always be there for you" but I would invite him/her to parties, sleepovers (if he/she would be a really close friend), shopping sprees (if that person would be a girl) etc. so he/she knows I want his/her company and he/she matters to me.

ClockHand
12-16-2012, 03:30 PM
Ya, girls love shopping sprees, there is nothing else that girls want and there is no girl who wouldn't prefer anything different. And people who think in suicide are immediately stopped if they feel that matter to someone.

Black_Shaggie
12-17-2012, 02:25 PM
Glad folks started to comment on this thread again. Lots of lost souls out there who think this is the only option...feeling as if there's no one for support...feeling useless...full of regrets...chemically unbalanced...indebted to the point where's there's no end...into some serious life ending shit (crime, disease, etc;..) whatever.

Like Clock said, I'd wager that if anybody who's suicidal actually HAD someone truly concerned with they're well being, they'd opt to live. This supporter's job isn't easy though. They'd have to commit to actually being there emotionally for the suicidal person not matter what.

I've never been suicidal, but I've been through some really dark (and long) periods of depression where, had I not had someone to remind me that I am appreciated...and I do matter...and to keep fighting, I may have very well have fragged myself.

Aether
12-18-2012, 02:48 AM
Can you really call it a selfish act if its the result of a serious mental illness such as depression? You wouldn't say its selfish of someone to die from a physical illness, so what makes mental illness different?Yeah, you can. A parent shouldn't have to bury a child. Also, there is medication for depression, if someone honestly suffers from a chemical imbalance, then see a doctor and get a prescription.

Bringing death onto loved ones is a very selfish act, they live the rest of their lives wondering what they could have done to change the outcome and a lot of them blame themselves for the suicide.

GunZet
12-18-2012, 03:05 AM
Remember that the person with thoughts of suicide may not have a close family, nor one that cares about them, or- anybody, for that matter, which imo, only promotes the deed that much more.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1500607/me3_4.jpeg
Though not, always the case.
Too many variables.
Too many variables, need more time.

Black_Shaggie
12-18-2012, 10:40 AM
Yeah, you can. A parent shouldn't have to bury a child. Also, there is medication for depression, if someone honestly suffers from a chemical imbalance, then see a doctor and get a prescription.

Bringing death onto loved ones is a very selfish act, they live the rest of their lives wondering what they could have done to change the outcome and a lot of them blame themselves for the suicide.

I get what you're saying here but I disagree.

See, the thing is, those with chemical imbalances sometimes (most often actually) need more than medication that stabilizes their emotions or mood. A person with mental illness...that wants to frag themselves...also needs the genuine support of loved ones. Simply having a psychiatrist write a prescription won't stop those dark thoughts from surfacing.

Even a the help of a therapist or a psychologist can prevent suicide because they become that support group. I do understand that the loss of a loved one through suicide creates thoughts of resentment from those who have lost someone in this way but if they haven't paid attention to the signs, tried to get said loved one help or relied on just medicine to 'fix' the problem then I think it selfish of them for not doing enough to prevent the suicide.

Who's to blame if someone wants to kill themselves & nobody notices (or they ignore) the signs that lead to that end? Is it completely mentally ill or depressed person? I think not. Some of that blame lies with the loved ones for not paying attention. I do agree with some of what GunZet said though. Hard to notice a problem with somebody if they're completely introverted and alone in the world & that's tragic. even the, there are people who could help...a coworker...fellow homeless person...idk. They may not have a close support group, but somebody's there who can pick up the signs.

When I was in the Navy, there was this really fucked up thing that happened with a Chief on my boat. He had recieved a VHS (hey it was the 90s) fromhis wife while we were deployed at sea. In this video, his wife tells dude how pathetic he is & that she wants a divorce. She then proceeds to have a 3 way with some guys. This Chief killed himself while we were underway not soon after. Here's a situation where somebody could've noticed the depression spiraling out of control but did nothing. I even feel like i could've done something, said something to try and let him know that he can get past it.

Of course, a lot of this doesn't apply to those people who commit suicide & don't have any mental illnesses. I think its selfish for a person to say, commit suicide because they can't support their family...or they've been spurned by a lover...or they've committed a crime & rather not face the authorities...or they seek the fame of martyrdom or some such bullshit. That shit is selfish & those people & fry in hell as far as I'm concerned.

Aether
12-22-2012, 02:46 AM
I get what you're saying here but I disagree.

See, the thing is, those with chemical imbalances sometimes (most often actually) need more than medication that stabilizes their emotions or mood. A person with mental illness...that wants to frag themselves...also needs the genuine support of loved ones. Simply having a psychiatrist write a prescription won't stop those dark thoughts from surfacing.Yes, but seeking out medical attention is the first step. I'm not saying medication is the be all and end all solution, I'm more saying that it's something that the person suffering from that severe depression should seek out on their own.


Even a the help of a therapist or a psychologist can prevent suicide because they become that support group.A doctor will strongly recommend that the person suffering should see a therapist or psychologist.


I do understand that the loss of a loved one through suicide creates thoughts of resentment from those who have lost someone in this way but if they haven't paid attention to the signs, tried to get said loved one help or relied on just medicine to 'fix' the problem then I think it selfish of them for not doing enough to prevent the suicide.You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. A lot of people don't know what to do to help those suffering from depression. Pity can lead to spiralling deeper down. Pushing them to seek medical attention can lead them to think that they're somehow abnormal. You don't know how that person will react, you could make it far worse if you force help onto them. The only thing you can really do is say, "hey, I've noticed you've been off lately. Is there something on your mind? I'm happy to listen."
Apart from that, it's in their hands.

Someone suffering from depression will know that there's something not quite right; it's just not in human nature to end your own life, so if you know there's something not right, you go and find help. I'm a firm believer that people who are depressed and don't actively seek out their own help are just using depression as a tool to gain attention, pity, and a plethora of other things they may not be getting. But to actually feed their delusion will make it worse. No, it's never, ever, ever a loved one's fault. Ever.


Who's to blame if someone wants to kill themselves & nobody notices (or they ignore) the signs that lead to that end? Is it completely mentally ill or depressed person? I think not. Some of that blame lies with the loved ones for not paying attention.As I mentioned before, it's never, ever, ever a loved one's fault. Even partially. Unless they actively push that person further into a depression it's just not their fault.


I do agree with some of what GunZet said though. Hard to notice a problem with somebody if they're completely introverted and alone in the world & that's tragic. even the, there are people who could help...a coworker...fellow homeless person...idk. They may not have a close support group, but somebody's there who can pick up the signs.We all have our own problems. I'm not going to sit there and watch out for people who may be depressed, they have to do that themselves. I need to take care of myself and those I love first. Personally, I never become friends with any of my co-workers, hell I barely know their first names. Why?
I feel that it's unnecessary. Sure, I will joke with them or talk, I'm not rude. But outside of work, I don't really want to see any of my co-workers. I may change that stance in the future when I begin my proper career of choice, but for now, I don't give two shits about anyone I don't really know.


When I was in the Navy, there was this really fucked up thing that happened with a Chief on my boat. He had recieved a VHS (hey it was the 90s) fromhis wife while we were deployed at sea. In this video, his wife tells dude how pathetic he is & that she wants a divorce. She then proceeds to have a 3 way with some guys. This Chief killed himself while we were underway not soon after. Here's a situation where somebody could've noticed the depression spiraling out of control but did nothing. I even feel like i could've done something, said something to try and let him know that he can get past it.That's fucked up. But I don't think there's anything you could have done about it apart from saying "forget her man, she's a bitch. when we get off duty, we'll all go out and find you a nice girl."
But apart from that, I don't see what you can do to help. Besides, this is hardly what we're talking about here, our discussion is mainly about chemical imbalances.


Of course, a lot of this doesn't apply to those people who commit suicide & don't have any mental illnesses. I think its selfish for a person to say, commit suicide because they can't support their family...or they've been spurned by a lover...or they've committed a crime & rather not face the authorities...or they seek the fame of martyrdom or some such bullshit. That shit is selfish & those people & fry in hell as far as I'm concerned.Well yeah, I totally agree with this point here.

Kodos
12-22-2012, 01:20 PM
I think blanket discussions of suicide are fundamentally pointless because suicide is a choice where the correctness of the choice really needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Just like homicide, really. Whether or not the killing of a human being - by the individual in question or another - is something of such enormous importance that you really need to carefully examine all the variables and draw conclusions.

I do, however, think suicide is the most basic, and perhaps most important, right of a human. It's arguably the right from which all other rights derive. The right to choose life or not, the right to say 'no' in the most final and ultimate way. It's the fundamental show of ownership over one's body and really I can't imagine any right more basal or fundamental.