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ram
05-14-2012, 01:52 PM
Political, Religion, you parents, Clockhand, whatever..

Topic

AlmanacnamedTime
05-14-2012, 02:14 PM
YOU!!! jk.

GunZet
05-14-2012, 02:19 PM
Infinite space.

butternut
05-14-2012, 03:33 PM
Th fact that you need some amount of manipulation or play politics to get something done. That all systems aren't transparent, and even the ones that boast of being transparent aren't truly open.

Mr_Liebe
05-14-2012, 03:50 PM
Double standards between the different races and the 2 genders.

Delphinus
05-14-2012, 03:51 PM
The way it's impossible to completely empathise with anyone, including lovers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN60DR5GQpg), and know how it feels to be that person.

Sylux
05-14-2012, 06:04 PM
The fact that there are people in this world who defiantly do exactly what I do not want them to do as I feel these things are wrong.

Delphinus
05-14-2012, 06:23 PM
^ wow that is pretty childish

Sylux
05-14-2012, 06:31 PM
Not when I feel that things like rape are wrong.

Delphinus
05-14-2012, 06:41 PM
I mean not accepting it. Sure it sucks but bad stuff happens. That is life.

Tales-Of-Aerion
05-14-2012, 07:14 PM
The theory that us earth things are the only beings that exist in space.

Sylux
05-14-2012, 07:16 PM
I mean not accepting it. Sure it sucks but bad stuff happens. That is life.

Oh, I can accept it. I just find it difficult.

Bacon_Barbarian
05-14-2012, 08:49 PM
I'm going to have to go with GunZ and say infinite spaces. Spent way too much time Saturday just staring at the stars.

ram
05-14-2012, 08:56 PM
Yeah it's so hard to accept people do bad things without any reasons, get mad without a reasonable explanation..

I've suffered from bullies myself, atleast they're not the type of bullies who would flush you in the toilet but still really bad in so many ways..
I've always wondered to myself "how can people become so bad and do bad things without any reason?"

I do know there are more bad people around the world and I do know that I'm really lucky compared to them but it's still hard to accept that this is the reality that we see..

Also to the other people theory isn't reality yet, so your free to not accept it...

CypressDahlia
05-15-2012, 12:48 AM
The fact that most of the time, we are not the people who pay the biggest price for our irresponsibility.

WhenRabbitsAttack
05-15-2012, 05:06 AM
how truly self-absorbed everyone (including me) is.

have you ever stopped to think before you grouched at that person that clipped your shoulder when you were walking on the pavement? ever wonder why they were there? where they came from. why the might have not been looking where they were going?

i try my hardest to constantly see others point of view,(don't always suceeded) but if i explain this to others, they think i'm creepy. sheesh.

ram
05-15-2012, 05:28 AM
I wonder why is it that when I make a thread everyone is always agreeing to each other, And I was expecting some debates in this type of topic. OTL

Sylux
05-15-2012, 06:15 AM
how truly self-absorbed everyone (including me) is.

have you ever stopped to think before you grouched at that person that clipped your shoulder when you were walking on the pavement? ever wonder why they were there? where they came from. why the might have not been looking where they were going?

i try my hardest to constantly see others point of view,(don't always suceeded) but if i explain this to others, they think i'm creepy. sheesh.

The proper response is something like "Watch it, asshat."

Delphinus
05-15-2012, 07:19 AM
how truly self-absorbed everyone (including me) is.

have you ever stopped to think before you grouched at that person that clipped your shoulder when you were walking on the pavement? ever wonder why they were there? where they came from. why the might have not been looking where they were going?

i try my hardest to constantly see others point of view,(don't always suceeded) but if i explain this to others, they think i'm creepy. sheesh.

Welcome to materialistic society, we have a wealth of apathy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xCCoull3I4


However, an increase in material wealth and goods in the US has actually had little to no effect on the well-being and happiness of its people. Skitovsky called this a "joyless economy" in which people endlessly pursue comforts to the detriments of pleasures.

Using two measures of subjective well-being, one study found that materialism was negatively related to happiness, meaning that people who tended to be more materialistic were also less happy. When people derive a lot of pleasure from buying things and believe that acquiring material possessions are important life goals, they tend to have lower life satisfaction scores. Materialism also positively correlates with more serious psychological issues such as depression, narcissism and paranoia. Ironically, a person's pursuit of happiness through the "American Dream" will make them unhappier.

Black_Shaggie
05-15-2012, 01:54 PM
Rabbits is right! So is Del though. It is what it is. I mean...I think its in one's nature to be "self absorbed" (I can not & will not elaborate because I'm too busy being delicious!). Its really difficult to see one's self juxtaposed everything else without being in the very least a little self absorbed. But the materialistic world that many of us liven today makes it even easier to become self absorbed. I go out of my way to speak to everyone I meet on the street. Just a friendly hello, nothing more. But I know they probably won't speak back so I greet them with a hello & an angry scowl simultaneously. Its all f'ed up. Am I self absorbed for thinking I should extend good will to the fellow passerby Or is it really my perception that people aren't as kind as I am that makes me scowl?

Either way it bums me out...

Kodos
05-17-2012, 01:14 PM
Double standards between the different races and the 2 genders.
There are more than 2 genders, buddy.

Blue_Dragon
05-17-2012, 03:34 PM
Along the lines of what some others have been saying, I find it difficult to believe (though I know its true) that everything one does, even if it's for another person, is almost always (if not always) self-centered. Even something like martyrdom, or less extreme going out of one's way to help another, is subconsciously done with some kind of reward in mind; whether it be something as large as being remembered for one's sacrifice, or as small as feeling good that "you" were a nice enough person to help someone even when the direct outcome didn't benefit (or may even have been detriment) to oneself. If that makes sense.

Anyway, I'd like to be optimistic and think it's possible to for someone to do something nice for another without themself in mind at all, but having this debate in a couple different classes (and this is just what we came up with, we could be way off) has indicated that on some level of comprehension/subconscious there's always some kind of reward gained that may/is the goal for doing said kind acts.

Sylux
05-17-2012, 03:38 PM
It is hard to accept that jaidurn/myself is not a woman (one or the other) because we would totes be married by now

AlmanacnamedTime
05-17-2012, 03:56 PM
you can still get married in some states.

something that i cant accept, being confined to something not of my own free will.

Sylux
05-17-2012, 04:03 PM
The thing is we're not gay so even if the entire US legalized it we wouldn't do it. Not even hold hands. Unless one of us were a chick.

Blue_Dragon
05-17-2012, 04:08 PM
This is somewhat on topic, in relation to Almanac, but is common law marriage still in play? I mean, it's kinda rude of the state to just marry you because you've lived together for like ever.

AlmanacnamedTime
05-17-2012, 04:16 PM
@sy makes sense.

@blue yeah its in play last i checked. but you have to apply for it.

Son44
05-17-2012, 05:55 PM
Reality?

What is reality? Is it what we see, what we feel, taste, hear and feel? Is it what we know?
Reality changes, our preception changes and our knowledge changes. What all of us here, on mt, look upon as an unchangeable fact, is infact changable. From the earth is flat and the center of the univers,the earth is round, the earth is not the center of the univers, we're in a solar system etc. all the way to infinite space.
A friend showed me the first part of a quote:
"A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything..." - John Ziman (Too bad he shoots himself in the foot with the rest of the quote, but google the rest if you want to know what I mean).

Anyway, Instead of de-railing the topic in to (some would say) philosophical rambling:
I can't accept or not accept reality because I can't say what it is truly real or not.
Edit: What I do have problems with is people who accept a lot of things they are taught as an unchangable reality

Delphinus
05-17-2012, 06:12 PM
^ That's pretentious. Unless you're having a philosophy discussion, why not substitute 'apparent reality' for 'reality' rather than quibbling over the meaning of words?

See also: every theory of ontology or epistemology ever.

Son44
05-17-2012, 06:31 PM
^ That's pretentious as well. You're assuming my point was just, like I said above, rambling about the meaning of words or the origins. In other words philosophical BS. It doesn't mean you're wrong, because I am big on the definition and meaning of words, concepts etc. Anyway:

I have problems with what we accept as reality, hence why I mentioned the progression humans have had on space and the earth's role. What we accept as real and (as implied by this thread) unchangeable is, most of the time, changeable.
Btw. You made me remeber a sentence I was going to add at the end of my post, which I have done:
"... What I do have problems with is people who accept a lot of things they are taught as an unchangable reality".

Also, I know a lot of people have thought about the things I mentioned above, why post it?

jubeh
05-17-2012, 06:32 PM
You're actually both really pretentious and I'm finding it hard to accept that

Son44
05-17-2012, 06:36 PM
You're actually both really pretentious and I'm finding it hard to accept that

Ok....
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/617/okayguy.jpg

Delphinus
05-17-2012, 06:50 PM
You're actually both really pretentious and I'm finding it hard to accept that

http://i.qkme.me/366plv.jpg

Sutari
05-17-2012, 06:56 PM
1. Opinions and free will are what make us individuals, but also what makes us fight and kill.
2. Human beings are limited by primitive drives (eat, sleep, poop, procreate)
3. Humans start out politically corrupt as kids (smashing things/stealing from other kids to get what they want just because they want it, and thats all that matters).
4. We label everything and create our own mental prisons, then complain about why we aren't free.
5. We love to repeat other peoples ideas to make ourselves feel valued.
6. One of the hardest things to do is to let go of a belief system that makes us feel comfort and safety (even if its proven to be a scam). WE NO LIKE CHANGE
7. Most people are codependent, and need someone else (or a government) to take care of them in one way or another, but claim to be independent.


thats all I got atm, I think about this stuff alot, so thanks for making this thread, ram

Kodos
05-17-2012, 08:09 PM
Reality?

What is reality? Is it what we see, what we feel, taste, hear and feel? Is it what we know?
Reality changes, our preception changes and our knowledge changes. What all of us here, on mt, look upon as an unchangeable fact, is infact changable. From the earth is flat and the center of the univers,the earth is round, the earth is not the center of the univers, we're in a solar system etc. all the way to infinite space.
A friend showed me the first part of a quote:
"A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything..." - John Ziman (Too bad he shoots himself in the foot with the rest of the quote, but google the rest if you want to know what I mean).

Anyway, Instead of de-railing the topic in to (some would say) philosophical rambling:
I can't accept or not accept reality because I can't say what it is truly real or not.
Edit: What I do have problems with is people who accept a lot of things they are taught as an unchangable reality
Reality is that which does not go away when you stop believing in it.

Son44
05-17-2012, 10:49 PM
Reality is that which does not go away when you stop believing in it.

Define me "It". Also, as your saying goes now, it's a self validating fallacy:

If something is real (P), then it will not go away when you stop believing in it (Q)
It has not gone away(Q)
Therfore it is real (P)

Flip it around:
If something is not real (P), then it will go away when you stop beliving in it (Q)
It has gone away (Q)
Therfore it is not real (P)

Another problem is: Who defines what goes away and what stays?

Sylux
05-17-2012, 11:03 PM
Shut up jeez. If there is a computer screen with Wikipedia making you feel like you're smart in front of you and you close your eyes and then when you open them up it is still there, it is real. For all intents and purposes, the philosophy of reality has no bearing or meaning in our society. The only issue in our society that might be offered the question of reality are schizophrenia cases and maybe shrooms. That's as far as it goes so just shut up about it.

Bacon_Barbarian
05-17-2012, 11:07 PM
Yeah, Son you messed up your inversion. It would need to be:

If something is not real (P), then it will go away when you stop beliving in it (Q)
It has not gone away (Q)
Therfore it is real (P)

Kodos
05-18-2012, 12:02 AM
Define me "It". Also, as your saying goes now, it's a self validating fallacy:

If something is real (P), then it will not go away when you stop believing in it (Q)
It has not gone away(Q)
Therfore it is real (P)

Flip it around:
If something is not real (P), then it will go away when you stop beliving in it (Q)
It has gone away (Q)
Therfore it is not real (P)

Another problem is: Who defines what goes away and what stays?
If you are going to rely purely on deductive reasoning to assess reality you will literally never move past cogito ergo sum and a handful of other a priori things.

Son44
05-18-2012, 05:41 AM
¨
Shut up jeez. If there is a computer screen with Wikipedia making you feel like you're smart in front of you and you close your eyes and then when you open them up it is still there, it is real. For all intents and purposes, the philosophy of reality has no bearing or meaning in our society. The only issue in our society that might be offered the question of reality are schizophrenia cases and maybe shrooms. That's as far as it goes so just shut up about it.

I don't know if you're serious or not but:

In the middle age the philosophy was that the earth is flat, we're the center of the univers and god is in everything and is everywhere. Now, please tell me how this did not affect society.
Do the same with the Renaissance and every other reality we have embraced as real through out history.


Yeah, Son you messed up your inversion. It would need to be:

If something is not real (P), then it will go away when you stop beliving in it (Q)
It has not gone away (Q)
Therfore it is real (P)

Ah, I knew something was wrong. Next time I'll get some sleep before I try to analyse a sentence.


If you are going to rely purely on deductive reasoning to assess reality you will literally never move past cogito ergo sum and a handful of other a priori things.

"Cogito ergo sum" isn't a good argument becasue it doesn't define "thinking" and who am "I". Yes, I know Søren Kierkegaard said the same (I had to google Cogito Erog Sum), but me and a friend of mine actually thought about this during a 5 hour train trip to the capital of Norway.

I used deductiv reasoning to prove your argument to be fallacious at least (eventhough I failed at the inversion). Still you have yet to define me "it" in your argument. As it stands it's still fallacious by validating itself.

Gedeon
05-18-2012, 05:50 AM
For me its hard to accept how much unfriendly people are. And how some people will use someones kind-warmheartedness to get what they want completely ignoring other peoples feelings. Its hard for me to understand such people. I am the opposite of what MM4funs post says. I always put myself in others shoes....sometimes too much. And in the end i forget to watch out for my shoes and get stepped all over. I have too much fate in humanity, and i always give people too much credit. Its hard for me to make peace with the fact that i'll just have to be an asshole around some people.

Sylux
05-18-2012, 05:51 AM
It's hard to accept how unremarkable Son is being. It's like he just watched The Matrix or something.

Son44
05-18-2012, 06:01 AM
It's hard to accept that Sylux doesn't creat any conter-arguments and sound like one of those "If a tree falls, then, Blah blah blah" people who thinks that philosophy has no value in our "modern", "civilized" society.

Sylux
05-18-2012, 06:06 AM
Did I ever say civilized? Did I ever say modern? Cuz now it really looks like you didn't even read my earlier argument. Honestly, in your society, you're expected to go to work, pay rent, buy groceries, and survive in a such way. Seriously, the point of this thread is not to argue reality, it's to state effectively true realities. If you want to go around in life questioning things, I encourage this, but don't be an arsehole and start questioning the reality of a fucking iPod or something.

Son44
05-18-2012, 06:11 AM
So you're simplifying my argument into the classic "tree falls = your philosophy is bs". Classy, never thought I'd see this on mt.
Also, re-read my original post. It states that what I do have problems with is "What I do have problems with is people who accept a lot of things they are taught as an unchangable reality".

Edit: The reason why "I wrote philosophy has no value in our "modern", "civilized" society." Is because most of the time the attitude that "X philosophy is BS" goes hand in hand with "our modern, civilized and knowledgeable society doesn't need to know anything about trees falling or not".

Sylux
05-18-2012, 06:25 AM
You're picking a fight in this thread. It's not the point of the thread to argue what is real, it is to argue what is accepted as real. I understand the philosophy you're marching with but this particular thread is not for that. Make a brain in a vat thread or something.

ram
05-18-2012, 07:15 AM
Well if you ask me I don't really mind as long the mods don't mind, I'm having fun reading these types of arguments.. thought it does looks like matrix.

Psy
05-18-2012, 11:29 AM
It is ok so far and this thread kind of lends itself to a debate so yea you can keep arguing. Just remember if you start making it personal and calling each other stupid or anything worse I won't hesitate to infract you into oblivion.

Black_Shaggie
05-18-2012, 12:36 PM
umm...one reality that I find hard to accept is the inevitable end that awaits us all. Death. Call me slap silly and stupid because, even though I know that death will come for us all, I just can't see it coming for me anytime soon you know? Honestly, as we live and create here in the present, how many of us actually ponder the fact that one day your entire reality will cease (change, ascend, whatever)? That life as you comprehend it now will forever be over? I mean I know we can't live for ever, nor do I want to. I'm just saying that while the "on" switch is flipped...I kinda find it difficult to acknowledge the "off" position.

GunZet
05-18-2012, 12:54 PM
Posted this in the spam thread before, buuuut since it relates to the above, why not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOY-jJeOeBk

Psy
05-18-2012, 01:03 PM
Gunzet I am going to give you the native American name "thread killer" ok?

I find it hard to believe that that video was actually comforting.

arsland
05-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Live the life to the extreme but keep in mind that you don't regret what you have done.

GunZet
05-18-2012, 01:16 PM
Gunzet I am going to give you the native American name "thread killer" ok?

I find it hard to believe that that video was actually comforting.

Maybe not to you, depends on how you perceive it. You do realize death is inevitable and unknown, right? So then there should be nothing discomforting about it, seeing as though we're all living to die at some point, can't stop that shit, mang.

Buuuut I know it digs in on some people's anxiety, and thinking about death is tough if you're not in acceptance with it yet. My bad man D: though I'll take the name ;D.

Now on topic. What I find hard to accept is the fact that there's only the illusion of free will. Had a big conversation about this with the Kodos and Del on the last forum, about whether there really is actually free will, but I've come to see that there really are only a certain number of predetermined paths sadly.

Psy
05-18-2012, 01:20 PM
No don't get me wrong I actually was comforted by the video. It's just odd because it's literally some dude saying "you are going to die and there's nothing you can do about it". It's an awkward awful thing to say but so true and explained very well that it just makes you say "yea ok I guess that's alright" and not worry about it.

CypressDahlia
05-18-2012, 01:24 PM
I'm not going to die. I don't know about you guys.

I guess that is a hard reality to accept. That you're going to die, but I'm not.

Mr_Liebe
05-18-2012, 01:29 PM
9ers didn't make it to the Super Bowl. DAMN IT, I CAN'T ACCEPT IT, GRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!

Delphinus
05-18-2012, 03:23 PM
The reason why "I wrote philosophy has no value in our "modern", "civilized" society." Is because most of the time the attitude that "X philosophy is BS" goes hand in hand with "our modern, civilized and knowledgeable society doesn't need to know anything about trees falling or not".

Modern philosophy has moved far beyond trees falling. Most modern philosophers subscribe to either representative realism (which says the tree doesn't make a sound because sounds are in the mind of the perceiver, the same as colours etc.) or a form of immaterialism (which says that reality is either comprised of ideas or only knowable through ideas; we cannot reach the true reality).

I think phenomenology, a form of immaterialism, provides the most believable account of our world. Phenomenology analyses the way our minds structure experience rather than the issue of whether there is a noumenal world (which, as Kant pointed out, is unknowable and thus unimportant). It questions our traditional ways of structuring our experience into frameworks, and thus questions most meta-narratives, making it compatible with postmodern philosophy.

Son44
05-18-2012, 05:44 PM
Modern philosophy has moved far beyond trees falling. Most modern philosophers subscribe to either representative realism (which says the tree doesn't make a sound because sounds are in the mind of the perceiver, the same as colours etc.) or a form of immaterialism (which says that reality is either comprised of ideas or only knowable through ideas; we cannot reach the true reality).

I think phenomenology, a form of immaterialism, provides the most believable account of our world. Phenomenology analyses the way our minds structure experience rather than the issue of whether there is a noumenal world (which, as Kant pointed out, is unknowable and thus unimportant). It questions our traditional ways of structuring our experience into frameworks, and thus questions most meta-narratives, making it compatible with postmodern philosophy.

Interesting, but I think you're taking my response out of context. I was just taking Sylux's comment, analysing it and stating how he had simplified my argument into the most basic form. Hence the tree example - which I personally hate.
Anyway:
Representative realism and immaterialism - Huh, I should read up on some of this. Do you have any formal education in philosophy, Del?

Sylux
05-18-2012, 05:53 PM
Do you read the forums man he blabs about his Psychology class at University all the time

Son44
05-18-2012, 05:59 PM
Ah, well that explains everything XD

Delphinus
05-18-2012, 06:13 PM
Representative realism and immaterialism - Huh, I should read up on some of this. Do you have any formal education in philosophy, Del?

I'm doing an A level in Philosophy at the moment (not university, Sylux!), but I also like reading philosophy books for fun. Ontology, which is the study of reality, isn't really my favourite field but it's the base for almost everything else so it's pretty important. My favourite fields are actually political philosophy and meta-ethics. Meta-ethics talks about what makes an action moral or immoral, as opposed to normative ethics which talks about how we make ethical decisions, or applied ethics, which tells us what we ought to do in particular situation.

Phenomenology is important as a sturdy ontological basis for a post-structuralist anarchist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-anarchism) perspective (my view) and for formulating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism) morals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism) that aren't either nihilistic or absolutist. The arguments are fairly complicated, but basically everything is subjective and at the same time we should take a stance while acknowledging that our views are ultimately based only on our emotions.

WhenRabbitsAttack
05-19-2012, 05:31 AM
what is real and what isn't depends on your perspective though, doesn't it?

Delphinus
05-19-2012, 01:23 PM
That's the whole point of phenomenology. One of the main points in it is 'the objectivity of subjectivity' - we can't know what others experience as reality, and we can't know about any external reality, if such a reality exists, so we have to accept our own experiences, along with all the biases and emotions in them, as the only reality we can ever know, but at the same time question this apparent reality.

toast
05-19-2012, 05:55 PM
That people think firing Dan Harmon is actually a good idea and making another Big Bang Theory will make Community a better show. Fuck it.