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CypressDahlia
02-20-2012, 01:08 PM
A few times while browsing the gallery, i've come across ads for an MMO called Crystal Saga. Now, I've said this a lot of times, I'm a huge fan of Hyung Tae Kim, so I recognize his art or any derivatives of his art when I see it. So what are your opinions on this?

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9022/knighttp.jpg
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4384/juto.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1412/melissar.jpg

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7050/priestkd.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4821/zephie.jpg

Now I understand that "poses" cannot be copied. Heck, as artists we copy poses all the time as part of the learning process. But here, not only the poses have been ripped (with exact angles and perspectives), but the entire composition of each piece has been ripped including lighting, use of atmospheric perspective, and the character designs are extremely similar. The context of the designs and poses are even the same. The worst part is, someone got PAID to do this. It doesn't help that the person being ripped off is one of my most admired artists.

Is anyone else bothered by this?

ClockHand
02-20-2012, 01:43 PM
No

CypressDahlia
02-20-2012, 04:15 PM
* takes notes *

lack of artistic integrity does not bother Clockhand

indescribable
02-20-2012, 05:31 PM
It kinda bugs me that someone is being recognized and paid for it, but otherwise, no, not really.

CypressDahlia
02-20-2012, 05:41 PM
Yeah that's pretty much the thing that set me off. I mean I hate it when people don't state their references, but doing that shit on a professional level is just wrong.

Mr_Liebe
02-20-2012, 06:05 PM
It really is a shame that instead of creating their own characters, to attain recognition or pay, people just copy other people's painstakingly drawn work, and calls it their own, or neglects giving the original artist credit for creation of the original drawing. However, it's something that happens, and groaning about it won't change it. One thing, I can't say that I won't feel the same level of anger if the same thing happened to me, so I won't say it doesn't bother me at all, it does a great deal, because I understand the amount of work a lot of these artists put into their art.

jubeh
02-20-2012, 09:35 PM
Doesn't bother me but I can see why some people would be upset by it

Psy
02-20-2012, 11:39 PM
Its lazy and disheartening to dedicated artists like those that probably lost out on a job to the art thief who designed everything on this game.

Sylux
02-24-2012, 08:42 PM
Doesn't bother me. Less successful games and other media (p. much mostly games) rip designs straight out of other things. I forget which online game it was, but they literally used Isaac's suit from Dead Space in the game. They called it the Dead Space suit or whatever, but they still ripped. There was an amazing example of some game ripping off Oblivion, but I can't remember it. And it was banned. In addition, there were two off-road games: One successful game, and one cheap copy-clone. It happens all the time, but no need to worry about it.

Rio
02-29-2012, 08:17 PM
I have mixed feelings about poses. On one hand, there's only so many ways the body can be portrayed and to have every artist only show their character in a unique way all the time is asking the impossible. On the other hand, there are certain iconic poses like the Marilyn Monroe skirt floating up pose that are so recognizable that anyone who does the same will be seen as a poser.

Personally, looking at those images, I actually thought about one of my favorite games, Odin Sphere:
http://images.wikia.com/odinsphere/images/4/43/VelvetImage.JPG

I've also seen males with poses like the ones you posted but I can't remember the specific games atm.

CypressDahlia
02-29-2012, 08:23 PM
Sylux, because it happens all the time does not mean it's okay. Lack of creativity is one of the leading causes behind our oversaturated media. We often complain that products are not innovative or don't try new things. Wouldn't you say stuff like this is the root of that stagnation?

Sylux
02-29-2012, 08:31 PM
I do agree, but I believe most of us have become desensitized to it. I've come to believe that I cannot do anything to change it, so I just let it be. I do, however, concur that innovation is key in a successful AND tasteful entertainment market.

CypressDahlia
02-29-2012, 08:42 PM
yeah it sucks that we can't do anything about it. especially since the company who owns Crystal saga is based in china and their copyright laws are very lax.

Regantor
02-29-2012, 10:46 PM
I've heard of worse. Like a paris fashion show directly lifting images off of deviantart, and t-shirt makers ripping webcomics off wholesale... But yeah, it's damn annoying considering these people get massive amounts of exposure from it and thus can afford for it to be their day job.

Not much anyone can do about it, other than expose that particular game/image/fashion show's creative bankruptcy, unfortunately. :/

indescribable
02-29-2012, 11:23 PM
It's not really the use of a particular pose or a hairstyle* by another artist that bugs me, it's that these images seem to share several distinct design elements, not just one. I suppose you could chalk some of these up to coincidence or the fact that these types of game characters all require similar style outfits, but I rather think not.

In addition, the pose in the Odin Sphere image is slightly different (direction of the left foot, arm placement, head tilt), whereas the Crystal Saga poses are almost EXACTLY the same as those in the HTK pictures.

CypressDahlia
03-01-2012, 01:24 AM
Yeah I don't think copying the poses is a big deal, though they should never be that identical, especially when it comes to professional work. It's how identical the overall compositions are that is alarming. I can imagine the Odin Sphere pose looking the same way as the HTK pose if the angle was slightly more from behind--but that's exactly it: same pose, different composition. Composition of course accounts for all things like mood, mass distribution, perspective, lighting etc, etc. And to have two pictures so identical in composition is just indicative of a rip off. Of course, this is not to say all compositions will always be original. For example, two impressionistic painters painting the same subject, same angle in the same lighting will have almost identical paintings. but this is because there is only one "right" way to do impressionism, which is measured against accuracy.

These are creative pieces where the artists have full creative control so for these elements to be so similar is inexcusable.

Sylux
03-01-2012, 05:17 PM
I think that excuses in their cases are limited. In multiple games and anime you/characters wear clothing completely inappropriate for your/their scenario(s). In Masashi Kishimoto's most popular piece, the main character wears a bright orange costume, despite being a ninja-based stealth warrior. In Assassin's Creed II you can also change your attire colors to very ridiculously bright schemes. In the .hack series, especially Project .hack, you wear clothing that is quite unacceptable by physical standards for melee combat. In a lesser degree in .hack Conglomerate, your character often wears more revealing suits. The 3rd form is about the only entirely acceptable one. This applies for many JRPGs, as well. As far as creativity goes in games, regard for what is necessary seems to not quite be an issue in many developers' minds.

Regantor
03-02-2012, 11:00 AM
These are creative pieces where the artists have full creative control so for these elements to be so similar is inexcusable.

This. There are so many fantastic artists out there with brilliant, original ideas who go entirely unheard of (and unemployed).

I'd even say that the costumes are differant enough to be 'meh whatever', but the poses and lighting are just so damn similar, that I could totally believe that some of these might even have been 'shopped over the original images; And I would call somebody out for that if I seen them featured on Deviantart, never mind getting paid a bundle for it.


In multiple games and anime you/characters wear clothing completely inappropriate for your/their scenario(s).

JRPGS, man. Inappropriate clothing, inappropriate weapons, more often than not, inappropriate skin colour. Seriously, through, I think that this is never really brought up by the developers simply because either A) They want really weird, outlandish, memorable characters. B) The developers are not generally artists themselves and are prone to giving directions like "Make it look like one of those 40k space marines, only not".

CypressDahlia
03-02-2012, 01:52 PM
Ugghh I hate that.

"make it something like [x] from [y]" And it's like: come on, you conceived of a game but you didn't even put any thought into the characters?

Sylux
03-02-2012, 02:33 PM
"Make a ninja and dress it up like Ryu Hayabusa!"

apples13
03-03-2012, 03:54 PM
I heard this happen with the creator of d grayman it is hard to say if it is the artist directly copying everything or creating this from a subconscious memory without realizing it.

Sylux
03-03-2012, 03:59 PM
Um well no that's clearly extremely unlikely...

apples13
03-03-2012, 08:31 PM
Um well no that's clearly extremely unlikely...

Actually it is not. There are plenty of cases of plagiarism that happened because of this.

Sylux
03-03-2012, 08:49 PM
No seriously he copied like 4 drawings, all 4 from the same guy. That is so seriously fucking unlikely.

Nite01
03-04-2012, 12:05 AM
i have to say it does look very similar

ClockHand
03-04-2012, 03:19 PM
I really can't care about this. The fact is that artists copy, steal and mimic everything they see, creativity is a myth killed after the romanticism, in part be the psychoanalysis and the hermeneutic, and probably others, it really doesn't mater, but the fact is that artist copy, and that's a fact.

So how can we determinate when someone does a plagiarism? As I can tell the only way to tell if someone is making such a thing is when someone takes similar elements and elaborate them in the same discussion. But I really can't care in this case (when I can see that both conditions are checked) because the artist, in both cases, were payed to do archetypes; "universal" constructs that don't change in their roles. So, by principle, they use a discussion that didn't belong to them, that wasn't their own, but rather "universal", and if another artist takes the same elements and elaborate them with some tiny differences. I really couldn't care.

Also, we should sue almost 99% of the artists in here, because we all start doing things, and we all keep executing some elements from other artists we appreciate. The deal is that to learn we copy. As Urasawa portrayed in Billy Bat "How did you learned to draw a glass of water? By imitating someone else, and that person did the same, and so the others. Who is the owner then?"

Yeah my ethic is pretty low, but who cares? Who made the rules on art in the first place (so we can kill him)?

CypressDahlia
03-04-2012, 03:39 PM
I think we're mixing up originality and creativity. Originality is a myth, sure, since everything is inevitably based off a preexisting concept or idea. But the issue is not what the drawings are based off of, but how they are communicated. That's creativity: the ability to communicate even similar ideas in new ways. If you go through the portfolios on Conceptart.org, many of them contain extremely similar ideas, yet the compositions vary drastically. So yes, archetypes are universal constructs. How they are expressed in terms of drawing, though, is not. That is entirely of the artist.

And no, 99% of the artists here wouldn't get sued because there is a difference between copying a piece for personal use and claiming credit for it. For example, if I copied a passage from a book into my notes as part of a learning exercise, can I get sued? No. Because I am not attributing myself as the author of this passage. I am learning the work of another author. And nobody can "own" a glass of water in concept, but one can own their drawing of a glass of water, in terms of the elements of the drawing. You're really blurring the line between copying and plagiarism.

Regantor
03-05-2012, 07:50 AM
What Cypress said. Adding to it;

Let's say somebody really wanted to make a manga that looked like star wars, and wore it's inspiration on it's sleeve. If the plot, setting and characters were more or less exactly the same in all but name, that would be plagiarism. Originality is about going in directions where other people haven't thought of, and this story would fail at that...

But, this also means that if a major change was brought about in the same plot (making a story to a apathetic empire resisting cultural downfall), setting (changing everything from space to an underwater kingdom), or characters (perhaps making it from the point of a stereotypical stormtrooper goon), you can also make things much fresher without even denying your original inspiration material. You can even call these things 'points of inspiration'- Just one element and you have a nice spin on the story, two of them and you have a new-strain genre-bending mutation, and all three gives you an entirely different work. Maybe absolute originality isn't possible, but you can still have a high degree of it, rather than none at all.

Trying is what counts. That's your own personal mental uniqueness in action. Your soul, for lack of a better atheistic term.

If you want to say that originality doesn't exist at all, and you mightawise just continuously re-read flash gordon whilst re-listening to elvis. They both inspired alot of things, but that doesn't mean everything is a carbon copy of them.

Rio
03-08-2012, 06:15 PM
Btw,forgot to mention it but I saw this comparison of the OT awhile back at this site here (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/chinese-mmo-rips-of-korean-artist-hyung-tae-kim/). Other interesting stuff on the site:

Nick Simmons Likes to Trace (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/nick-simmons-likes-to-trace/) (copied Bleach panels)
Scholastic Winner is a Thief (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/scholastic-art-winner-is-a-thief/)
But it's fair use... (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/but-its-fair-use/)
Copying, Stalking and Shop Deletions on Etsy (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/copying-stalking-and-shop-deletions-on-etsy/)
Hot (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/hot-topicpierce-the-veil-copies-artist-vera-brosgol/) Topic (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/hot-topic-strikes-again/) Likes (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/hot-topic-rips-off-deviantart-artist-again/) to Steal (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/hot-topic-stealing-another-artists-design/) from (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/rawr-that-means-thief-in-dinosaur/) Artists (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/hot-topic-selling-rip-off-of-threadless-design/)

apples13
03-10-2012, 05:07 PM
Great...... :(

toast
10-22-2012, 07:07 PM
in the end, does it really matter? the poses are quite generic character poses (typical escher girls http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/). sure I guess the character designs are a bit similar but is anyone really going to care? it's not like the guy did it better than hyung

Black_Shaggie
10-24-2012, 04:54 PM
Shit...when I looked at the original post, I'd thought that it was actually the same guy at first.

Do I think it's unethical what this dude did? Nope. I kind of side with Clock on this (just not to that extreme lol). We as artist do copy, mimic, clone, wtf ever...personally, I think its whacked to jack somebody's poses & MAKE A PROFIT FROM IT. That lacks creativity, but using another's style isn't such big deal to me. I mean, Masamune Shirow (specifically Appleseed) was/ is a huge influence on my work & so is Jack Kirby (his early work with Marvel). When I was developing my personal style, I'd sit there & copy pages upon pages of both of their stuff & when I'm not constrained to a particular style during a project, my stuff can sometimes look like a blend of the two. Like Cype said, I think we copy others as a training tool.

But using someone's work like this guy's done seems a bit over the top & fucking lazy. I don't care though because if he follows that trend...using already published work as a "template" will eventually wind up karmically bite him in the ass.

Did I mention that this cat is lazy?

Sylux
05-15-2013, 11:22 AM
Hey does anyone know where I could get some Jordan 1 Back Toe or bred 11s?