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ram
12-26-2011, 07:23 PM
I don't know if there's a thread like this one before.

Discuss?

Is it? Or is it not?

Fenn
12-26-2011, 08:23 PM
Nah. It's essential for life, which makes it very important; if we're talking material possesions here, its probably most important. If we're including abstract concepts as well, though, I'd drop it a few notches.

ram
12-26-2011, 09:25 PM
I'll just paste the stuffs that I saw in paulnoll.com

Arguments in Favor:

1. Everything in modern society is based on money. As the saying goes, money makes the world go around.
2. Parents object to their daughters' marriages unless their future sons-in-laws have jobs with good prospects.
3. Many young people marry for money rather than love. Security is more important than happiness.
4. Some people in Shanghai would even trade their self-esteem for money.
5. Materialism influences education, too. Students acquire knowledge not for its own sake, but for a bigger wage.
6. Students choose business courses rather than liberal arts for the sake of earning big money in the future.
7. Very few people want to be teachers because teaching is not a lucrative profession.
8. More emphasis is put on material life than on spiritual life in modern society.
People do anything in their power to earn money to buy their houses, furniture, cars, etc.
9. People are trained to be acquisitive from an early age and are not considered successful unless they make good money.
10. People spend most of their lives struggling frantically to keep up with their neighbors.
11. Wealthy nations can succeed by offering their poorer talented neighbors bigger salaries.
12. Financial rewards for pop stars make many people envy them.
13. A desire to earn more money is nothing to be ashamed of.
14. Deng Xiao-ping said, "To get rich is glorious."
15. Being poor is not very much fun.
16. Being rich allows you to do what you want.
17. If you are rich, many people want you for a friend.
18. It is easier to marry well if you are wealthy.
19. Being wealthy allows you to enjoy life to the fullest.
20. The man who has the money makes the rules.


It kinda wins on abstract as well.

GunZet
12-26-2011, 09:50 PM
15. Being poor is not very much fun.

Inksprout
12-26-2011, 09:50 PM
While I'm not going to argue with those points I will say that I've always thought a more interesting question is should money be the most important thing? While I acknowledge the importance of money I do no obsess over it or hold it all tightly to my chest like some people I know. For example my bf can't buy ANYTHING unless its a bargain price. Like a serious bargain. To him even a slight price mark down is not good enough, it hasd to be seriously discounted. Frequently he refuses to eat takeway with us or buys something small then goes to the supermarket and buys discounted almost expired food to supplement it. I'm not saying its wrong to try to save money but there comes a point where you're going to far. The point of having extra money is to spend it on other stuff ie: getting takeaway with your friends!

I have another friend who had a massive fight with me because my shoes broke and I said I would rather have them repaired then buy new ones even if the repair price was around the same price as new ones. My thinking was thus, these shoes are still perfectly fine, why throw them away and get new ones when I could just fix these? Her thinking seemed to be OMG WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID YOU CAN JUST GET NEW ONES FOR THE SAME PRICE WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU!! It didn't seem like that bigger deal to me because either way I would have good shoes that were fine, and my way involved not 'wasting' my older pair. To be honest it really freaks me out how much other people act obsessed with cash. It's important and argueably the MOST important asset to have but I believe its possible to put it on too grater pedastool, to the point where concern for money overshadows other things that are just as important. Even in the list of arguements there are some points that make me raise my eyebrows and go there is something wrong with the world.

ClockHand
12-26-2011, 10:06 PM
I use to have a friend who invite me dinners, movies, etc. Now that I'm writing this I think "wow, was he trying to hit on me?", but well that is not the point, but rather his problem with money, he could never control himself with money, he waste everything in every single caprice he wanted, he even bought a race car one day... yeah now he compete in rallies. But that was his level of spending money.

In a different case I had a friend who never waste money, never, a little like me (but I'm trying to change). He never waste money, he love video games but hate to pay for them, he love movies but hate to pay for a movie, and the same goes for books and tv series. He waste in fast food and weed, everything else has no value.

Now the point is simple, money is not bad. The deal is that we don't know how to waste it, and I'm not saying you need to invest your money or do good deals, I'm saying that people have a problem in giving values to objects or services and making the analogy with a monetary value. The first case, he just think see the object as more important than money, so having the car is more important than the amount of money he is wasting, and obviously having this freedom makes him very capricious. While in the second case, he love things, but he consider money (or other objects, more consumables) more important, and he don't see the price of what he love equal to the value he think it should have.

If you really like something is not bad to waste money (if you have), but you need to be aware of what you really want and what is just a whim.

Inksprout
12-26-2011, 10:16 PM
Man I get so annoyed with people like your second friend who always refuse to pay for stuff just because they can get it for free. Yeah you can download every movie ever for free and the same with games, books, music etc but the fact of the matter is that someone worked their arse off to to make that. They need money just as much as you and if you have the money to get something like that rather than steeling it you should do so as much as possible. So many people I know are like that, and they give the old but I don't have the money excuse and then go spend $100 on clothes. The thing that annoyed me most about this attitude is when I was trying to get sponsored for the live below the line challenge, which was to raise money for very poor people. I asked people at my uni to sponsor me even if it was only $5 or something small like that. I think out of the people from my uni 3 people gave me money? The most annoying case was this guy who told me he had no money WHILE he was heading off to buy takeaway. He lives at home with his parents, they do all the grocery shopping and probably give him extra pocket money as well. It was infuriating because the callenge was to live off only $2 worth of food a day for a week, so I'm going home eating plain rice wishing I could have egg with it and he's there being all I don't have any money to sponsor you with because I randomly feel the need to eat takeaway steak.

ClockHand
12-26-2011, 10:23 PM
The funny thing, he study cine and he knows that when he download movies he is not helping the industry, same industry he want to be part of. Of course many directors and people inside the movie industry download movies, but there is a difference between downloading indiscriminately when you could help, to just download what you can't reach.

Delphinus
12-27-2011, 09:58 AM
Money is the lubrication on the gears of a happy life.

Black_Shaggie
12-28-2011, 12:06 PM
Money is merely a tool. How a person uses it is what's important...but only to them. I had an GF who had a very high paying job & never wanted for anything she desired. But she hates helping others with her wealth. We'd argue because my job(s) actually put me on financial level close to her own, but I've always lived a very spartan existence. I mean, I do get the material things I desire. I'm not frugal at all. But I'm content with having the things that I really need before excessive spending and, I help those who are in need when I can. The money karmically comes back to me usually anyway. But this is they way I use money to make me happy.

My ex, while surrounded by material objects, is not emotionally happy at all. So I'd have to say that money...though it is important...it is not the most important thing in the world. How rich one's life is emotionally is the most important thing in the world. And having wealth? It can make one happy, sure. But only if its used in a way that is not selfish. You don't have save every 3rd world kid that Sally Struthers is pimping, rather just share a little of that happiness with others who don't have it.

I remember this homeless guy downtown asking for money for a bite to eat. It was winter & he looked real crappy. I'd just got paid. Didn't have any cash, but I had my card. I took the dude to Subway & bought us both subs sat down & ate with him. During our meal, he admitted he was trying to get money for alcohol, but was happy that I got him something to eat & would repay me when he saw me again. I thought nothing of the matter but the next day, he came running up with $5 in change trying to pay me for the sub! I didn't take it, but it made me feel good to help him out & be repaid with honesty sincerity from my fellow man.

CypressDahlia
12-28-2011, 12:35 PM
Whether money is important or not is relative to how rich the person is and how high their standards are. I can imagine a time where money wasn't worth a shit.

Fenn
12-28-2011, 02:01 PM
ram the points you posted refer to the question "is money the most important thing in modern society" which is a different question than "do you believe money is most important?" Which question are you asking?

AudriCantDance
12-28-2011, 04:46 PM
it is the most important thing. gives you piece of mind. if there was no need for money...well, society would crash, there would be no need for jobs. Cash is the incentive that keeps people from doing w/e the hell they want. if there was no money, my bipolar grandpa would be doing 240 mph on a residential area without fear of being ticketed for speeding. this aint no Disney movie where magic feeds your souls. Its real life. you are either rich or you're not.

Delphinus
12-28-2011, 05:05 PM
@AudriCantDance

You're confusing money with what money represents. Even if we used a bartering system people would still exchange services. ;)

Inksprout
12-28-2011, 08:24 PM
I liked Delph's description, its like lubricant. Yeah, you can get by without being rich even in today's world and still be happy but money is certainly a helping factor. My main concern is that people out there still think money=happy. I was given more money than I needed in the form of scholarships when I started university. Its been comforting to have some money behind me, I never have to worry that I'm going to be broke while studying. Yet I wouldn't say its made me overall happier just having that money. I think one of the best things I ever did with it was sponsor a child. I think the whole idea of money=happiness makes people believe that they need to accumulate more and more material wealth. Personally for me I prefer to think that its about gaining enough for what I need and to do what I want (ie studying, starting a business) and then helping out those who are less well off with the rest. I was born in a first world country, so I'm already miles ahead of many other people in the world. Why should I horde all my wealth for no reason when I already have everything I need?

Fenn
12-28-2011, 09:31 PM
it is the most important thing. gives you piece of mind. if there was no need for money...well, society would crash, there would be no need for jobs. Cash is the incentive that keeps people from doing w/e the hell they want. if there was no money, my bipolar grandpa would be doing 240 mph on a residential area without fear of being ticketed for speeding. this aint no Disney movie where magic feeds your souls. Its real life. you are either rich or you're not.

Having $1,000,000 in my account would not make me happy. Spending it properly would. Like Delph and Ink said, it's a powerful tool that can definitely make people happy. But there are people will loads of money and no happiness, and people with little cash who are happier than their wealth suggests.

I think interpersonal relations are the most important thing. I'd argue very few people would be happy for an extended period of time without human contact, regardless of their material possessions. Children also need human interaction biologically in order to survive and become self-sustaining and socially competent. Relationships are every bit as important and unavoidable as money.

ClockHand
12-28-2011, 09:51 PM
I bet you have like 10 years old.

Trust me, most people would be more than happy having that money in their accounts.

Inksprout
12-28-2011, 09:53 PM
Maybe temporarily, but the act of simply having the money doesn't lead to long lasting happiness. Only what you choose to spend that money on can determine how happy having the money ultimately makes you.

ClockHand
12-28-2011, 09:56 PM
happiness is momentarily, like most emotions. But any grown up person that see that amount of money in their accounts are going to be happy. Not directly because of money, but about what that money can do in their lifes.

Inksprout
12-28-2011, 10:00 PM
My point is that money in and of itself does not equal happiness (you're pretty much agreeing with me I know). I just think that some people assume that because they get the money they will be happy with whatever they decide to do with it and as black shaggie pointed out that is often not the reality. Money can do a lot for people's lives, its true but there are plenty of people out there who will just spend it all and still be sad.

ram
12-29-2011, 02:53 AM
ram the points you posted refer to the question "is money the most important thing in modern society" which is a different question than "do you believe money is most important?" Which question are you asking?

The title does states the "World" So yeah I guess I mean modern society.

Edit: I wouldn't have anything against you if you do post a different topic than that, I guess my topic isn't that fun cause we already know that majority of this world have their lives worshiping nothing but money.

So let's change it into "do you believe money is most important?"

Fenn
12-30-2011, 02:40 PM
I bet you have like 10 years old.

Trust me, most people would be more than happy having that money in their accounts.

Read closely. I said having it wouldn't make me happy, SPENDING it would. My point was how you use your money determines whether it makes you happy. There are people with more than that amount of money who aren't happy because they hardly have any control over their lives, they have trust issues, a haunting past, etc.


The title does states the "World" So yeah I guess I mean modern society.

Edit: I wouldn't have anything against you if you do post a different topic than that, I guess my topic isn't that fun cause we already know that majority of this world have their lives worshiping nothing but money.

So let's change it into "do you believe money is most important?"

Sorry ram i didn't read the title closely. It's your thread, I don't want ot hijack it. From a world perspective, I'd still put relationships on the same plain as money.

ram
12-30-2011, 06:29 PM
I don't own this thread I just started it.

And what you are doing isn't really getting far on the topic.

Fenn
12-30-2011, 09:37 PM
I don't own this thread I just started it.

And what you are doing isn't really getting far on the topic.

Wadda ya mean? I said no, i don't think so, and gave an example of something that I consider more important.

Bacon_Barbarian
12-30-2011, 10:39 PM
Happiness and keeping to your morals are the most important things. Money can help with the prior, but not the latter. Or ... Not easily anyway. So yeah, it's important. But not the most important.

Sylux
12-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Read closely. I said having it wouldn't make me happy, SPENDING it would. My point was how you use your money determines whether it makes you happy. There are people with more than that amount of money who aren't happy because they hardly have any control over their lives, they have trust issues, a haunting past, etc.



Sorry ram i didn't read the title closely. It's your thread, I don't want ot hijack it. From a world perspective, I'd still put relationships on the same plain as money.

plane*

Without money you cannot have faithful women or a really cool computer.

Fenn
01-01-2012, 08:16 PM
plane*

Without money you cannot have faithful women or a really cool computer.

The former is not always true and the latter can be built for under $700, as many a computer geek has explained to me.

Sylux
01-01-2012, 08:18 PM
$699 is money so you cannot build a really cool computer without money

Fenn
01-01-2012, 08:44 PM
If we're getting technical you can steal the parts or get them from recycled computers.

Sylux
01-01-2012, 09:06 PM
Look what I'm trying to say Fenn is that money is really fucking important

Inksprout
01-01-2012, 09:55 PM
Perhaps having the means to gain money is actually more important then the money itself? Like yeah you can steal stuff if you don't have the money but that is wrong and you can get in trouble for it. You can't do a lot of things without the money but you can't have money without some means to get it right? So really money isn't the most important thing in the world. The most important thing in the world is having the means to get what you want/need to survive. In the society we live in that is simply money because we can get everything else with that. In a third world country maybe its more important that you can grow food to eat and trade. Maybe we should be saying that the most important thing is our jobs, or living somewhere that the government can pay you an income while you're studying or down on your luck rather than the money itself.

CypressDahlia
01-02-2012, 04:41 AM
I don't think we should think of "stealing" as such an accessible option...

apples13
01-02-2012, 04:56 AM
Water is probably the most important thing in the world

Inksprout
01-02-2012, 06:17 AM
Cyp you would be surprised how many people do stealing is accessible. Several of my friends shop lift casually as if its nothing and I know this is true of a lot of people. Even aside from actual shop lifting almost every sinngle person I know steals music, games, books and movies without even a second thought about what we're actually doing. Stealing is morally wrong because it ruins other people's ability to earn money but the truth is a lot of people do it casually without even questioning it.

Sylux
01-02-2012, 06:47 AM
Water is probably the most important thing in the world

Money can buy water B)

apples13
01-02-2012, 12:55 PM
Money can buy water B)
money can't buy water if there is no water

Sylux
01-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Water isn't only located on Earth you know, so it's not the most important thing in the world

apples13
01-02-2012, 02:18 PM
Water isn't only located on Earth you know, so it's not the most important thing in the world

just because other planets have it does not change the importance of it on our planet

Sylux
01-02-2012, 02:45 PM
Sure it does.

Fenn
01-02-2012, 08:29 PM
Look what I'm trying to say Fenn is that money is really fucking important

I'm agreeing with you dude. I just don't think it's most important.

Money can't buy friendship, and it sure can't buy family. And before Delphinus comes in to try and refute this, keep in mind true friends stick with you through thick and thin, meaning they're there whether you can give them money or you're asking for it yourself.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 01:07 AM
I'm agreeing with you dude. I just don't think it's most important.

Money can't buy friendship, and it sure can't buy family. And before Delphinus comes in to try and refute this, keep in mind true friends stick with you through thick and thin, meaning they're there whether you can give them money or you're asking for it yourself.

Man ur right

JAIDURN AND KODOS R DA MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN DA WORLD 2 ME ;_;

GunZet
01-03-2012, 01:31 AM
For once or maybe twice, I agree with the Fennster.

Bacon_Barbarian
01-03-2012, 02:52 AM
Fenn is right. Again. Bloody miracle. Are you Kaiba, Fenn?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akj_YtusxHE

*Relevant, I swear*

Fenn
01-03-2012, 10:49 AM
I used to own three blue-eyes white dragons and a blue eyes ultimate...so maybe.

Delphinus
01-03-2012, 03:49 PM
Stealing is morally wrong because it ruins other people's ability to earn money but the truth is a lot of people do it casually without even questioning it.

Why is causing problems for other people morally wrong?

Sylux
01-03-2012, 05:33 PM
Why is causing problems for other people morally wrong?

Come on, Delphinus, stop being a sociopath. Grow up, would you?

Delphinus
01-03-2012, 05:52 PM
The laws of God, the laws of man,
He may keep that will and can;
Not I: let God and man decree
Laws for themselves and not for me;
And if my ways are not as theirs
Let them mind their own affairs.
Their deeds I judge and much condemn,
Yet when did I make laws for them?
Please yourselves, say I, and they
Need only look the other way.
But no, they will not; they must still
Wrest their neighbor to their will,
And make me dance as they desire
With jail and gallows and hell-fire.
And how am I to face the odds
Of man’s bedevilment and God’s?
I, a stranger and afraid
In a world I never made.
They will be master, right or wrong;
Though both are foolish, both are strong.
And since, my soul, we cannot fly
To Saturn nor to Mercury,
Keep we must, if keep we can,
These foreign laws of God and man.

Individualism is a valid philosophy, isn't it? Looks like sociopathy, but is actually the opposite. Accepting the blind rule of a society that increasingly encourages apathy and stoicism is far more sociopathic than challenging it.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 05:55 PM
Why don't you try to make yourself useful and help people instead of trying to hurt them.

CypressDahlia
01-03-2012, 06:04 PM
Cyp you would be surprised how many people do stealing is accessible. Several of my friends shop lift casually as if its nothing and I know this is true of a lot of people. Even aside from actual shop lifting almost every sinngle person I know steals music, games, books and movies without even a second thought about what we're actually doing. Stealing is morally wrong because it ruins other people's ability to earn money but the truth is a lot of people do it casually without even questioning it.


Yes, but can you get by in your life just by stealing? Can you steal a house, enough clothes, food, money and entertainment to live on? When talking about stealing as a replacement for money, it's not very accessible. Also it's really not healthy for our society to think that way, either. Money exists to ensure a negotiable exchange of commodities.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 06:22 PM
Okay, this is where the black and white splashes some heavy grey on it. If you download a game illegally from a site that is not affiliated with the game creators, you're not cheating them out of any money. They're not paying for server hosting on your behalf, and you aren't stealing physical merchandise from a store, denying another customer a sale and the studio their money. It's as if you had never even heard of the game before - or, better yet, if you were reluctant to purchase it fully at first and then played it, loved it, and bought it, the company is in some cash even. That's what I did for Mass Effect 2. I illegally downloaded from a third party, and then loved the game so much that I'm now a proud holder of a legitimately purchased CD Key obtained via Steam. So, long winded way to say: online media stealing really isn't even all that bad.

Delphinus
01-03-2012, 06:25 PM
Why don't you try to make yourself useful and help people instead of trying to hurt them.

You're just trolling now; you must know that I'm not a rapist murderer drug dealer irl. But we're off-topic.

And Sylux that holds true for everything that's controlled by computers nowadays. It would take one variable to be altered in my bank's database tables for me to be £10,000 richer. In doing so, I'd be defrauding the bank of... absolutely nothing, and it's difficult to see who, exactly, I'd be hurting by creating such a relatively small amount of currency out of thin air (also, banks do it with fractional-reserve loans; hot damn the financial sector is sizzling with potential fraud convictions). That's the meaning of 'information age'.

To a lesser extent it's also true of any physical product that's available in sufficient abundance. Rice, for example. Steal a big bag of rice that cost 1.5p to produce from Wal-Mart and it's difficult to see who loses out. Wal-Mart accounts for shoplifting in its budgets, no doubt, and I feed myself for a day or two in lieu of other food. If I were starving, would you arrest me for doing that?

Sylux
01-03-2012, 06:41 PM
No, but stealing frivolous things is wrong. There's a difference between rice and an Xbox 360.

Delphinus
01-03-2012, 07:32 PM
Why? Do you believe that stealing an Xbox 360 from Gamestop would damage Microsoft's profits? Or Gamestop's? Employees are all paid by the hour; they won't be harmed. Head office earn far too much for the price of a single console to matter to them. It harms nobody.

Theft from individuals is different, but I daresay that the worst you cause someone by robbing their console is emotional distress. If it's someone you don't know or care about, then emotional distress? Really? Do you care if your failure to donate to charity causes distress to the starving homeless man who would have been not-starving if you'd donated that money? His plight is far worse than the plight of the person you stole the Xbox of. And yet you don't call for non-donators to charity to be locked up.

On the other hand, I imagine most people care about themselves. And a shiny new Xbox 360 is going to make me happier, innit? So, in summation: a person you care about (yourself) becomes happier at the expense of a person you don't care about (the victim) becoming less happy. Hell, by buying goods made in sweatshops you're causing worse problems for people you don't care about.

The real reason theft is looked down on is because it threatens consumer culture, thus first-world capitalism as a whole. If some people can get what they want without doing it through socially-accepted routes, why shouldn't everyone? It's just society punishing people for valuing themselves over an abstract concept. Very collectivist, innit.

CypressDahlia
01-03-2012, 07:35 PM
I also pirate. But I don't consider it "not bad" or not stealing. I consider myself a pirate, a thief and am full willing to accept any consequences for it. Not even trying to rationalize it at all. I stole skyrim, too.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 07:37 PM
Why? Do you believe that stealing an Xbox 360 from Gamestop would damage Microsoft's profits? Or Gamestop's? Employees are all paid by the hour; they won't be harmed. Head office earn far too much for the price of a single console to matter to them. It harms nobody.

Theft from individuals is different, but I daresay that the worst you cause someone by robbing their console is emotional distress. If it's someone you don't know or care about, then emotional distress? Really? Do you care if your failure to donate to charity causes distress to the starving homeless man who would have been not-starving if you'd donated that money? His plight is far worse than the plight of the person you stole the Xbox of. And yet you don't call for non-donators to charity to be locked up.

On the other hand, I imagine most people care about themselves. And a shiny new Xbox 360 is going to make me happier, innit? So, in summation: a person you care about (yourself) becomes happier at the expense of a person you don't care about (the victim) becoming less happy. Hell, by buying goods made in sweatshops you're causing worse problems to people you don't care about.

The real reason theft is looked down on is because it threatens consumer culture, thus first-world capitalism as a whole. If some people can get what they want without doing it through socially-accepted routes, why shouldn't everyone? It's just society punishing people for valuing themselves over an abstract concept. Very collectivist, innit.

You're making everything too complicated. Some things can be clean and cut, and the line between stealing out of necessity and out of desire are completely different. One is wrong, and the other is not. Let's see if you can guess which is which.

Inksprout
01-03-2012, 07:39 PM
Delph: I'm basing the idea that its morally wrong solely on that I wouldn't want someone else to steal from me. I think its just common decency to avoid blatantly stealing from people when its just frivolous, so I agree with sylux there. I would hope that if someone was starving there was someone they could turn to for help, but I don't think I would make a moral protest against someone stealing to survive.

Also Sylux, you're wrong about piracy not being an issue. Your attitude towards it is one where you're probably not hurting the industry but there are people out there who don't think of it like that at all. Its simply I can get this for free so why would I pay for it? There are people who have the money but just don't want to spend it and people who choose to live with very little money and still try to use their poverty as an excuse to not buy games. The problem is that even people like us who are trying not to damage the industry still encourage piracy and others who just don't want to pay for games. Aside from anything else if you take a game without paying for it you're stealing the company's profit. Sure if you like the game you'll buy it. If you don't then you just got to play the whole thing for free anyway, which you would otherwise have had to buy to experience. I don't really see why everyone thinks piracy is some how a 'grey' area.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 07:45 PM
Did I not make my point? You're not denying them a sale, especially not if it isn't physical, especially if you can't even afford a gameboy game anyway. It's as if you'd never even heard of it. Do I have to use italics AND bold? Piracy is not stealing - stop listening to the ads. Besides, someone somewhere made the purchase originally. I'm a game developer myself, and I would be rightfully honored if my game were popular and important enough to make it on TPB or with Skidrow.

Inksprout
01-03-2012, 07:53 PM
I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong, I'm just saying that that is not true of everyone who pirates games.

Delphinus
01-03-2012, 07:57 PM
Delph: I'm basing the idea that its morally wrong solely on that I wouldn't want someone else to steal from me.

Boo hoo it would upset me it must be wrong


You're making everything too complicated. Some things can be clean and cut, and the line between stealing out of necessity and out of desire are completely different. One is wrong, and the other is not. Let's see if you can guess which is which.

IT IS WRONG. NO SUBSTANTIATION REQUIRED FROM ME IT JUST IS WRONG.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 07:59 PM
I understand, yeah there are people just like my father, but it can be a grey area, certainly for kids who can't get jobs because they've never been previously employed. I'm just saying you can't outright say it's wrong, really, because many people pirate to decide whether or not to buy a a game. Oh, five more examples of myself, I also purchased Dragon Age: Origins, Amnesia, and the Penumbra Collection as a result of my approval of the games because of my extensive piracy. I haven't even replayed Dragon Age since I bought it, but I still bought it. (But I do have Dragon Age II illegally and will never buy it because I hate it and can't even finish it.)

Inksprout
01-03-2012, 08:01 PM
Delph I think your views are a little extreme. Are you promoting survival of the fittest? If we all just took whatever we wanted from who ever was around it seems like those more skilled at stealing would survive while those who are less selfish or are weaker would be screwed. Thats not a view I can really support.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 08:04 PM
Inksprout, this is Delphinus. I don't think you two have met before.

Delphinus
01-03-2012, 08:13 PM
No. I think I've only promoted survival of the fittest once, and I was being pretty stupid then.

I think it makes sense for these laws to exist, because without them there would be a total collapse of society, but I think that ultimately that's just a game of power. The law only exists to make it possible for cordial relationships between people to exist; while I think that the laws should be there to serve that purpose, I don't believe that individuals have any moral obligation to obey these laws if they think they can get away with it. There's a conflict - always has, always will be - between what an individual wants and what a group wants. The group wants to survive and reap the benefits of being united, but the individual wants the most for himself, and indeed the only logical reason to join a group is to further one's own interests. Where the group wants something that you don't want, you have the right to disobey. But likewise the group has the right to force you to bow to its will by hook or by crook.

I'm promoting people not believing that the law is the be-all and end-all of ethics.

ClockHand
01-03-2012, 08:13 PM
I love how movie directors are mostly pro piratery, while video game industry is completely against it. It shows where the priorities are.

And I agree with delp, if this is a capitalist market, then this problem is just a survival of the fittest (only in piratery).

Inksprout
01-03-2012, 08:16 PM
OK then delph, I can agree with that, as I said many of my own friends shoplift without a second thought.

Sylux
01-03-2012, 08:23 PM
I love how movie directors are mostly pro piratery, while video game industry is completely against it. It shows where the priorities are.

And I agree with delp, if this is a capitalist market, then this problem is just a survival of the fittest (only in piratery).
Games are 60 bucks a pop man @_@ plus with updates you're wasting bandwidth space giving them out to people who haven't paid

ClockHand
01-03-2012, 08:35 PM
It cost 60 bucks because they pay to publishers. With virtual sells the price is obviously decreased.

Of course if they don't become greedy bastards.