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Peteman
12-01-2011, 11:05 PM
Okay so I was raised in a christian family but have recently been struggling with my faith and with one issue in particular.

Premise 1: I believe that pre-destination is wrong. A God that is supposedly all loving would not create people in the full knowledge that they were going to hell. What mother would have a baby when they knew that as soon as they had it the baby would be totured and killed?

Premise 2: (and the main issue) We cannot control where and to whom we are born. The one thing that will effect everything about the rest of our existance; our personality,our culture, our values our way of life, how we see our selves, the chain of cause and effect that is the rest of our lives. Thus if we cannot choose to be in a position were Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) has any bearing on our lives or that we end up having a personality that will accept or decline it is beyond our control; how is being a Christian a matter of choice? And if it is not a choice then God is a douchebag for sending people to hell just because he made them.

Any philosophers among you care to enlighten me?

Peteman

ClockHand
12-01-2011, 11:07 PM
There is no free will, you are not free and neither is your will. Forget this stupid dreams and go back to study.

GunZet
12-01-2011, 11:18 PM
Ya see, this is one of those things that'll keep going on and on and on and on. It's like that choice debate I got into a while ago. There's no end, the only answer that'll remain true, is the one you can supply for yourself. Not to mention the brains around here will most undoubtedly say no.

ram
12-01-2011, 11:28 PM
If your asking for biblical answers, There is a record that God can control human will.

And there is a record that children will bear their parents sin, Something like that.
That's the philosophy of why we inherit the bad personalities of our parents, or good qualities.

I'm not the type who will say what verse or whatever lol, But I'm pretty sure it's in Exodus.


Still this place is full of Atheist so I'm pretty sure you'll get bad responses.

Peteman
12-01-2011, 11:33 PM
Im not particularly looking for biblical answers I'm looking for logical ones. Or is my logic correct?

CypressDahlia
12-01-2011, 11:49 PM
There is no free will due to how powerful social conditioning is. If we all made a basic timeline of our lives up until this point, I'm sure they would say almost identical things. We are groomed by society to live certain ways to achieve certain goals, "success" being the biggest one.

Fenn
12-01-2011, 11:59 PM
There is no free will due to how powerful social conditioning is. If we all made a basic timeline of our lives up until this point, I'm sure they would say almost identical things. We are groomed by society to live certain ways to achieve certain goals, "success" being the biggest one.

That's a bit extreme. Is our free will limited at times by the incredible force of social conditioning? Yes. But to say we have no free will is to say we have no meaningful choices, and even with the most powerful social conditioning, this is false.


@Peteman: From a physical. atomic standpoint we have no free will. Our fate is a direct result of (to go ALL THE WAY back,) the Big Bang, and the paths of the particles that currently make up our body, especially our brain, from the beginning of time until now. Since our brain is made up of matter, and matter follows specific, rigid natural laws, we have no real control over them.

That being said, from a social point of view, all properly functioning human beings have free will in the form of choice. Predestined or not, we FEEL as though we have the choice, and if you act on the idea that you have no say in your fate by deciding to do nothing, you are still making a choice that you are responsible for. It's a necessary illusion. (Psalm 14, Kodos, 2010)

Bacon_Barbarian
12-02-2011, 12:03 AM
GunZ, remember arguing about this with Kodos on the middle MT?

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 12:10 AM
How is it extreme, fenn? Are you saying that you and I will not live similar lives? Or that most of our 6.8 billion people don't live similar lives? Our choices in life are extremely limited by the predetermined path that society has chosen for us. In fact, our litmus for living well is usually based on comparisons we make between each others' lifestyles.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:19 AM
He asked if people have free will, not whether people live similar/unique lives. Physically, we are guided by physics and biology. Perceptually, we are guided by the illusion of choice.

Anyway, I don't think we're THAT similar. Looking only at the big picture prevents you from seeing the specific choices people face that can change their life in significant ways. A wrong word destroys a relationship. A right step leads to unexpected success. To say that our every decision is forced upon us by an overwhelming social construct is not accurate. I can provide more specific examples if you want.

Peteman
12-02-2011, 12:21 AM
Please do.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:25 AM
Take the example of a boyfriend and girlfriend (or any two people in a loving relationship). Sure, social context and norms have an influence on our actions towards our significant other, but so do personality, imprinted family values, personal experience, etc. In the end, it is this collection of factors that influences our choices. And to the mentally functioning human being, the choice feels, in the end, like our own, even though it is simply the actions of neurons in response to sensory input.

Bottom line is we are not ALL puppets moved by society, unless we allow ourselves to be or do not see the strings.

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 12:29 AM
yes, and free will is the practice of personal choices, correct? I said our personal choices are extremely limited by the expectations set for us by society from birth.

Furthermore, what is our ultimate goal in life? Most people would say get a degree, get a job, make money and retire, right? expectations.

GunZet
12-02-2011, 12:30 AM
GunZ, remember arguing about this with Kodos on the middle MT?

Yes, yes I do.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:34 AM
yes, and free will is the practice of personal choices, correct? I said our personal choices are extremely limited by the expectations set for us by society from birth.

I'm not sure you're considering the full breadth of choices we make either. Career-wise, I'd maybe agree with you for those raised in lower income brackets. Relationship/inter-personal wise? Not so much. And those are just two areas, what about sustainability, or personal health, or entertainment options, or finances?

Extremely limited and non-existant are two different things. WELL LOOKIE HERE. SEMANTICS AGAIN.

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 12:38 AM
Most people have the same goals as far as personal health, entertainment and finances. Most of us shoot for the "norm". Or by the standard of "success" based on the consensus of society abroad. What's available is different, but our choices--what we desire--are the same, for the most part.

If we all made a list of our objectives as far as personal health, finances and entertainment, I'm willing to bet that they would look very similar. And if not, they all still shoot toward the ultimate goal of autonomy and making and spending money. Like I said, we're all groomed by society to live in similar ways with similar overarching objectives.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:46 AM
Wait, since when were personal desires and goals free will?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free%20will

1: Voluntary choice or decision.

We do not choose our desires. That is true. That does not mean we have no free will. We have, for example, the choice to pursue a desire/goal, or to put that desire/goal aside until a future time.

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 12:48 AM
Did you just seriously say you don't choose your desires?

Hmm, actually I'll meet you halfway here. Certain desires are the result of impulse, sure, but I'd argue that most of our objectives in life are pretty much our choice. And I'm saying these objectives are heavily dictated by standards set by society.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:53 AM
Did you just seriously say you don't choose your desires?

Er, now I may have exaggerated. Depends. Your most base desires, no. Did you choose to desire pleasure, or chocolate, or a certain school subject? Probably not. More advances desires, which are similar to goals and wants, yeah. Based on your base desires, you want/wish for/seek out things that will fulfill these more innate desires, like money, security, fame, etc.

Funny thing is, that doesn't matter in the least as far as free will is concerned. The important thing is you can choose when, where, and how to pursue these desires, or whether to pursue them at all. Hence, free will.

Inksprout
12-02-2011, 02:01 AM
We do have free will to the extent that we have the courage to. As Gunzet seems to be saying, our choices are heavily dictated by society and many factors such as religion, society's expectations, peer pressure etc. At the end of the day though any one person can look and see that there is something else they can do, and they can choose to pursue it. Ultimately we DO have free will, but because of the nature of the world we live in today for many of us our ability to freely make decisions is heavily influenced by others. We Are consumers, so for a lot of people the goal in life is to make money, buy things and then make more money. If you have the courage to though you can seek a different purpose and different goals in life.

For example you may be born into a religious family but this does not mean you have no free will to choose your beliefs. Many people do change their religion or become atheists and they have through out history. It merely becomes harder to use your free will because you have to seek out other things, rather than being given a variety of choices from the beginning. Humans naturally have free will and I can't see this changing without some kind of mind control device that takes away the ability to think and consider. Even some one who is enslaved can perform actions of free will, they can refuse to work, they can seek escape or a way to kill themselves.

corastaur
12-02-2011, 04:26 AM
I agree with most if not all of what you just said inksprout. I definitely believe in free will, and I totally know where you're coming from peteman. I was also raised in a very christian family and have struggled with my faith in the past couple of years.


Premise 1: I believe that pre-destination is wrong. A God that is supposedly all loving would not create people in the full knowledge that they were going to hell. What mother would have a baby when they knew that as soon as they had it the baby would be totured and killed?

I agree, I don't believe in pre-destination either. The thing is I also don't believe in hell, or at least not a hell in the conventional sense... The bible is generally kind of vague when it describes heaven and hell (with the exclusion of revelations). I've had many discussions with my father (pastor) and others, and what i've generally decided i believe is that hell boils down to eternal separation from God, and heaven is eternal life with God. It's impossible to know what happens when we die, but I have a hard time believing in a God who sentences people who were never given a chance to believe (think people who died really young) to eternal suffering.


Premise 2: (and the main issue) We cannot control where and to whom we are born. The one thing that will effect everything about the rest of our existance; our personality,our culture, our values our way of life, how we see our selves, the chain of cause and effect that is the rest of our lives. Thus if we cannot choose to be in a position were Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) has any bearing on our lives or that we end up having a personality that will accept or decline it is beyond our control; how is being a Christian a matter of choice? And if it is not a choice then God is a douchebag for sending people to hell just because he made them.
I'm supposed to be a psych major, but I still haven't learned a ton. I do know, as i'm almost positive someone else already mentioned, it is true that environment plays a huge part in who you are and I guess in the decisions you make. Its almost the nature vs nurture argument... only not quite. Bah I'm not sure how to explain it. I believe that it is a matter of choice, but it's hard. I have issues with like the story of Jonah (did he really have free will? The story goes that he was stuck in a whale's stomach until he decided to listen to god...), oh! but didn't Jesus have free will? He wanted to back out of being crucified (see any of the gospels at the end when he's praying in the garden of gethsemane) but decided to go submit to it anyway. Crap man I guess I don't know :/ I just believe that we have free will, but I guess I don't have a good logic for it..... I feel foolish now. I'm going to go hide in my corner :cat_sad:

ram
12-02-2011, 04:30 AM
-Heredity
-Learning
-Environment

These are the only strings that our personality come from right?
Most of us just go with environment and most people just don't go with learning and just adopt everything, Good or bad.
If that's the case then I guess they have no free will to begin with.

I never got too deep in books of psychology but what I learned is we might have a choice.
That is choose what to adopt

Inksprout
12-02-2011, 06:50 AM
If you're talking about it from a purely religious POV surely the concept of heaven and hell implies that we DO have free will. Unless you believe God is evil then you have to believe that he is not controlling out lives, otherwise no one would be sent to hell, God would just make sure everyone did right or repented in the end to go to heaven. The fact that religion dictates there are good and bad spiritual consequences for our actions supports the idea of free will. Religion is a way of controlling people by making some choices seem better than others, it doesn't alter the fact that we can choose, it just controls people's choices within that religious set of belifes. If you think something in your religion is wrong then you do have the ability to question it and question your beliefs. Being too scared to make choices is not the same as not having free will.

Ram: I agree that learning is the most important factor in allowing people to make choices and have more free will. People need to know that their are other choices they can make. They say ignorance is bliss, and yet everyone wants to have 'free will'. The fact is that if you're following any belief or cultural trend or the expectations of others sure you might be happy, but you're not really experiencing free will. Whats more I think that people are increasingly unhappy in western culture. That's why in my earlier post I mentioned courage: because to defy society and what others want you to do often results in being labelled weird and different. People feel uncomfortable around that because they start to wonder if they too are wrong.

GAbRieLWrIgHt
12-02-2011, 07:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4&list=PLED25F943F8D6081C&feature=plcp
Watch this video, it indirectly proves God. I don't think that this person meant to prove God, but they did. Then if you have questions, ask. I'll answer.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4&list=PLED25F943F8D6081C&feature=plcp
Watch this video, it indirectly proves God. I don't think that this person meant to prove God, but they did. Then if you have questions, ask. I'll answer.

I would love to see how you managed to pull evidence for the existence of God from Schrodinger's cat. What, because we can't empirically test whether God exists or doesn't exist, then he exists?

ram
12-02-2011, 10:22 AM
Amaimon did you sent the wrong link?

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 11:54 AM
The idea of making choices that goes against the norm is very difficult mostly because of the lack of potential and how restrictive society is in its complexity. Everything is so over-complicated that it's almost impossible for someone born into the 'average life' to deviate from the norm. They're always going to be held back by the necessity of money. And no matter how you live, chances are you're gonna have to file some paperwork, get some permits and licenses, etc. etc. Our society is so heavily built around bureaucracy and paperwork and money that we are inevitably obligated toward these ends from birth.

ClockHand
12-02-2011, 12:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4&list=PLED25F943F8D6081C&feature=plcp
Watch this video, it indirectly proves God. I don't think that this person meant to prove God, but they did. Then if you have questions, ask. I'll answer.

That doesn't prove God exist. Also, Schrôdinger Cat doesn't prove free will, it only shows possibilities around a problem with 2 answers that are in a 50/50 equal chances.

A: The cat has no free will in the situation.
B: We neither have free will because we are only in a situation with 2 possibles answers (open or not open), even with those options one is futile (if you don't open, doesn't mean you saved the cat, you just evade the possibility of his dead).
C: We are part of the experiment, as in every experiment. This mean we are active participants who doesn't have free will in it, because we have no real power of decision on the experiment, we need to see what is going to happen, as the cat is doomed to die.
D: It doesn't prove God, the point of the experiment is not that, and I think you are misguiding what the video tries to say.

I don't believe in free will, I do believe that individuals are complex and dynamic systems that can't be understood at a 100%, but I do believe that we are predictable, and as we are, we can't have a free will. Ones you can predict the possibility of certain behaviors of a individual the idea that the individual can chose for himself is pointless because I can do as the experiment say and make the subject the cat. The difference is that no one is looking at us (or that is what we believe), so our behavior is never put on test, but if we do then the idea of free will die.

Free will only exist if there is no observant of our behavior.

PD. Soon this is going to become a debate between: Schrödinger cat, the suicide gun, the uncertainty principle and structuralist/marxist social theories.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:25 PM
The idea of making choices that goes against the norm is very difficult mostly because of the lack of potential and how restrictive society is in its complexity. Everything is so over-complicated that it's almost impossible for someone born into the 'average life' to deviate from the norm. They're always going to be held back by the necessity of money. And no matter how you live, chances are you're gonna have to file some paperwork, get some permits and licenses, etc. etc. Our society is so heavily built around bureaucracy and paperwork and money that we are inevitably obligated toward these ends from birth.

But the "norm" you are specifying is INCREDIBLY broad. To have no free will, society would have to control specifically when, where, how, and why you perform every single action, not just what you do.

I think we are on two different pages. You are looking at free will from the top-down, general-direction-of-life aspect, while I'm dealing with the bottom-up, specific-single-action perspective.

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 12:40 PM
I guess it's just a matter of perspective, then. It all comes down to what's more valuable in life. The destination or the journey?

Fenn
12-02-2011, 12:43 PM
I guess it's just a matter of perspective, then. It all comes down to what's more valuable in life. The destination or the journey?

Yes I think this is a great middle ground to reach for us. If I pan out in the world, I can see how the final outcomes for the majority of people are strikingly similar. But the how, the where, the when, and the why are still up to us, and on the smaller scale of observing individual lives it's pretty clear that we have and make conscious choices that affect us.

CypressDahlia
12-02-2011, 01:00 PM
Yep. But society heavily hints at the fact that we're all aiming for the ultimate goal of "success" and life starts once success is achieved. Everything we do before then is not life, so much as it is preparation for life. So we spend our entire lives in preparation for...life. This video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

Fenn
12-02-2011, 01:10 PM
What a beautiful piece. And it's becoming more and more applicable to everyone's lives every day. I was struck by your response, though, because of the universality with which you were speaking of it. The fact that, regardless of how few in number they may be, there ARE exceptions to this pattern indicates that in fact we do have free will. And, ironically, part of that free will is the choice to use it or not!

That's why I disagreed with you, because you implied every single person is completely and totally at the will of this society "machine." And we're not.

And of course we want success, because we want happiness, and success by definition brings happiness! Problem is most people don't decide for themselves what success is, they let society do it for them, hence free will is lost.

T1B3R1U5
12-02-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm going to say this and you can berate me later but every single human being has the ability to copy another. And I mean that at some point we make a decision to make our personalities to fit another's, we base our ideas on someone else's belief. But to having free will? I agree that we do have free will to extent but that raises a lot of questions that I will not go into for the sake of me being slightly insane and rather still having the immaturity of a 15 year old (even though i'm 17). So yeah, i'm just going to shut up now.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 03:20 PM
I am on my path. Good lord, another man is stepping into my path! My heavens, my plan was to get to the end of my path, what has happened? Another man has taken from me my complete plan! Whatever am I to do? Am I to keep going straight? No, that would be silly since I would just run into him. Then should I change my plans and go around him to get to my first goal, or make a second goal and see if that one goes better?

My life has been altered by another person. I am not free.

T1B3R1U5
12-02-2011, 03:37 PM
^----That sounded rather....poetic Sy.

Inksprout
12-02-2011, 06:16 PM
Life is a series of interactions Sylux. Being able to do literally whatever you want and never having to react to any external stimulus is not the definition of 'free will'. Someone may alter your path or influence your thinking but at the end of the day they would really only be compromising your choices. You can't say they are stopping you from being free unless they are literally controlling your entire life so that you can't make a single meaningful choice. Even if life gets in the way of what you wanted to do having free will means you can try to choose the next best thing to do.

Clockhand, just because someone's actions are predictable does not mean they do not have free will. Humans are great at recognising patterns so yeah we can often figure out how people will react in a given situation. That does not lessen the fact that the person is making a meaningful choice of their own volition. Only if we could be said to be directly controlling their choice could we say they weren't using free will. Observing and predicting is not the same as controlling and their are always exceptions to what you'd be able to predict anyway.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 06:27 PM
No, that is the definition of free will. Nothing in this world is free. Nothing at all. Can you fly into the sky by thinking about it, just because you want to? No. You can't do any of that crap, because you're not free. Nothing is.

Inksprout
12-02-2011, 06:31 PM
Free will is not the same as absolute freedom?

Edit: You're talking about freedom, not free will. Free will is the ability to make our own choices. Perhaps it would be nice if in making our own choices we didn't have to obey the laws of nature, but hey lets not get picky. The fact that 'everything is not fre doesn't mean we don't have any choice at all. If you have free will it means you can at least try to fly up into the sky just because you want to.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 07:12 PM
Jesus I'm surrounded by Libertarians.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 09:41 PM
No, that is the definition of free will. Nothing in this world is free. Nothing at all. Can you fly into the sky by thinking about it, just because you want to? No. You can't do any of that crap, because you're not free. Nothing is.

We already defined free will. you cant just come in here and change it.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 09:45 PM
You can't make your own definition for something that has an encyclopedia article!

Fenn
12-02-2011, 09:49 PM
You can't make your own definition for something that has an encyclopedia article!

Hence I used Merriam Webster's dictionary.

Kodos
12-02-2011, 09:52 PM
I actually wrote my final paper in a meta-ethics class on the non-existence of free will and what meaning that has for both normative ethics and meta-ethics.

Anyway, free will does not exist. The human mind is a product of the brain and nervous system, all of which are made of and function via matter. Matter obeys rules which are pretty damn well understood. Causality, man, causality.

The thing is, of course, that the causal factors behind human decision making are byzantine and manifold and it is impossible to account for them all. So in practical terms, predicting a person's behavior with 100% accuracy is, of course, impossible.

And in case anyone wants to bring up the possibility of quantum randomness - so what. Random does not entail choice. It simply means your behavior is determined by random factors beyond your control rather than by ordered factors beyond your control. You're still a slave to causality.

TL;DR: The brain is made of matter. Matter obeys cause-effect laws which are rigid and pretty well understood. The illusion of free will is a result of the complexity of the human mind and the sheer amount of causes that produce the effect of behavior. There is no free will. We are all meat robots. Beep boop.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 09:54 PM
But sylux is still wrong, right?

Sylux
12-02-2011, 09:56 PM
Alright, jackass, I've had enough out of you. This is an opinionated subject, not one you can just throw everybody around. I don't like your attitude, and I'm already gettin' the feeling I ain't gonna like your opinion either. Why don't you go ahead and enlighten me, then.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:03 PM
Alright, jackass, I've had enough out of you. This is an opinionated subject, not one you can just throw everybody around. I don't like your attitude, and I'm already gettin' the feeling I ain't gonna like your opinion either. Why don't you go ahead and enlighten me, then.

Of course it's opinionated! Did you not read Cypress and I's debate over it just before you entered? We realized we both had radically different concepts of what free will is and compromised. You came in, did not explain until 3 posts or so later what you even meant by free will (absolute, 100% freedom if I'm reading you correctly), and claimed it as a fact. Don't try to imply you came in all "We all have our views on it guys, lets get along!"

And just so you know, that last post was supposed to be funny.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 10:14 PM
Well you ain't a funny guy, poophead.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:18 PM
Well you ain't a funny guy, poophead.

Fine I'm a poophead. Conceded. Thanks for ignoring the first paragraph.

GAbRieLWrIgHt
12-02-2011, 10:18 PM
Okay, I think you remember the part at the end with the "whose looking in at us" or whatever. My theory was that it was God. then i realized that it didn't make sense, because there would have to be someone greater than him. But then I realized that since the Bible said he was omnipresent that it didn't limit him to one dimension.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:21 PM
He can't look on on himself though. And that doesn't prove God. It could be any number of omnipresent observers.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 10:23 PM
Fine I'm a poophead. Conceded. Thanks for ignoring the first paragraph.
Okay, you want acknowledgment? Well my phone didn't load the thread right so I didn't even read Kodos's post. He just bloody disproved this with goddamn science. I told you this whole time philosophically free will doesn't exist, and now it's being told to you scientifically that what you're burning over in this thread doesn't exist. To tack on to what Kodos said, we don't even exist as selves. We really exist as chemicals and synapses. The chemicals in our brains control our feelings, and try as we might to control our synapses, it's hard. Sure you can act like you're not mad when someone rapes your mother whom you love and adore, but you can't deny you feel bad unless you're a libertarian and in that case you're fucked up anyways.

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:32 PM
Okay, you want acknowledgment? Well my phone didn't load the thread right so I didn't even read Kodos's post. He just bloody disproved this with goddamn science. I told you this whole time philosophically free will doesn't exist, and now it's being told to you scientifically that what you're burning over in this thread doesn't exist. To tack on to what Kodos said, we don't even exist as selves. We really exist as chemicals and synapses. The chemicals in our brains control our feelings, and try as we might to control our synapses, it's hard. Sure you can act like you're not mad when someone rapes your mother whom you love and adore, but you can't deny you feel bad unless you're a libertarian and in that case you're fucked up anyways.

YES! I posted a similar comment to Kodos 2 pages ago! I even cited him! Holy shit, why are you getting mad at me! And as part of Kodos' point he stated free will is a necessary illusion, one we can't practically overcome. So for practical purposes, we have the ability to make choices. Go ahead, stop making "choices" for a week. You'll die.

God, I'm sorry I offended you. Holy shit.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 10:35 PM
Ok bro sorry I didn't read the thread. I see we p much have the same opinion on this so we cool now?

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:36 PM
Ok bro sorry I didn't read the thread. I see we p much have the same opinion on this so we cool now?

Yep :) I apologize for my rage.

Sylux
12-02-2011, 10:37 PM
Aw yeah sweet man :)

Fenn
12-02-2011, 10:39 PM
See, I chose to apologize out of my own free will.

*Flame Shield*

Sylux
12-02-2011, 10:43 PM
You're not that much of a poophead after all, Fenn

GunZet
12-02-2011, 11:25 PM
See, I chose to apologize out of my own free will.

*Flame Shield*

Nope <s>Chuck Testa</S> chemicals.

ram
12-03-2011, 06:01 AM
Wait, Does that mean you guys believe in fate and stuffs like that?(I don't know what else to call it)

like no matter what we do were already program to do those certain things in the future?

Inksprout
12-03-2011, 06:08 AM
It's not 'fate' because everything is still happening moment to moment and can't be predicted. What kodos is saying is just that all the factors which determine what we do are scientifcally out of our control. Fate is more saying that everything is predetermined and will end a certain way.

ram
12-03-2011, 06:28 AM
Sorry I already do know that but I don't know what word to say.
Don't have that many vocabulary. OTL

So yeah what I'm trying to ask is that we are program to do certain things, Like I was already program to type in this chatbox right now and also I'm program to join this site and talk to all of you.

raynmetal
12-05-2011, 09:24 AM
Well... I might be entering this a little too late... but....

From my point of view, if you were an omnipresent being(omnipresent, where you simply watch, not omnipotent,where you take part) that knew and understood EVERYTHING--- Everything that will happen and everything that has ever happened and the REASON behind all these "happenings"--- then everything will seem predetermined or "fixed" to you.

But, from the standpoint of an individual being(me, for example), there are in fact LOTS of choices, on a moment to moment basis. Whether to use my right index finger or use my middle finger to type in the letter "o" for example, is entirely up to me.

So i'd say what this omnipresent being is doing is simply predicting, you see. It isnt shaping how our lives go.

Therefore, provided no omnipotent being had any part to play in the creation of the universe(or any bit thereafter), then I think we DO have free will.

ram
12-05-2011, 09:49 AM
But, from the standpoint of an individual being(me, for example), there are in fact LOTS of choices, on a moment to moment basis. Whether to use my right index finger or use my middle finger to type in the letter "o" for example, is entirely up to me.

actually there's this, What kodos said is that the mind is a product of the brain, and the brain is made of matter.. So it still follows all the cause and effect rules of the universe.

like how your blood flow to your heart and stuffs.

Were no different than a mere cell, or a mere leaf that flows to the air.
you could say were just blood cells of the universe.
So were not entirely sure if your the one who decided where and when to push your finger in the keyboard, So yeah your kinda late on the discussion.

Gedeon
12-05-2011, 10:28 AM
Guys.......do you realize how depressed (almost) all of you sound? I say fudge it! Maybe i am being moved by the threads of a big all mighty being, maybe i just do what that little atom in one of my neurons told me to do.........im still going to have fun with it!!! My nephew just read this and said "So should i just let fate do everything?" HELL NO! I see us (humans) as little dust particals in the universe that nobody cares about. We will be here for some time, leave some record of us being here, the planet will be destroyed into space dust and it will be as if were never existed :D So until the day my little cells in my brain stop working im gonna have as much fun as i can!!! :D Now im off to eat.

Kodos
12-05-2011, 11:27 AM
Well... I might be entering this a little too late... but....

From my point of view, if you were an omnipresent being(omnipresent, where you simply watch, not omnipotent,where you take part) that knew and understood EVERYTHING--- Everything that will happen and everything that has ever happened and the REASON behind all these "happenings"--- then everything will seem predetermined or "fixed" to you.
That is omniscience, not omnipresence.


But, from the standpoint of an individual being(me, for example), there are in fact LOTS of choices, on a moment to moment basis. Whether to use my right index finger or use my middle finger to type in the letter "o" for example, is entirely up to me.
That is how it seems. But seeming is not reality. Also if the future is fixed then it is fixed. If I am thinking of a number and you cannot guess it, that does not mean I am not thinking of a particular number. Just because your perspective is unable to grasp the reality does not mean the reality ceases to be reality.


So i'd say what this omnipresent being is doing is simply predicting, you see. It isnt shaping how our lives go.
If you are able to predict the future with 100% accuracy then the future is predetermined by definition. Effect follows cause with or without intervention.


Therefore, provided no omnipotent being had any part to play in the creation of the universe(or any bit thereafter), then I think we DO have free will.
There are no omnipotent beings and even if they were it would be irellavent to this. 1 + 1 = 2. Period. Effect follows cause. The universe is deterministic and free will is an illusion born of complexity.


Guys.......do you realize how depressed (almost) all of you sound? I say fudge it! Maybe i am being moved by the threads of a big all mighty being, maybe i just do what that little atom in one of my neurons told me to do.........im still going to have fun with it!!! My nephew just read this and said "So should i just let fate do everything?" HELL NO! I see us (humans) as little dust particals in the universe that nobody cares about. We will be here for some time, leave some record of us being here, the planet will be destroyed into space dust and it will be as if were never existed :D So until the day my little cells in my brain stop working im gonna have as much fun as i can!!! :D Now im off to eat.
Who said anything about despair or depression? I may be an automaton following purely mechanical rules, but here, now, these illusions are real to me and they have meaning. Does it mater why I am able to laugh or to love? Or is what matters the fact I can do these things and that, to me anyway, they are beautiful? I say it is the latter.

Gedeon
12-05-2011, 12:38 PM
read the the first sentence....

Fenn
12-05-2011, 01:07 PM
This leads me to ask what is (or is there) the purpose of the illusion free will. Is it an evolutionary design? Simply a coincidence? A bi-product of rational thought?

Delphinus
12-05-2011, 02:26 PM
Does quantum mechanics allow for the existence of free will in the traditional sense?

Part of its definition is that no one outcome can be determined on the subatomic level, only a distribution of probable outcomes. We don't know what influences the ultimate 'decision' of a particle. It could be something related to the mind and consciousness, allowing free will, or it might be completely random, or it might vary depending on circumstances, or any of a number of options.

I'm agnostic but I like to think we have genuine free will.

ram
12-05-2011, 05:42 PM
I'm with Del, I won't underestimate the human brain.

GunZet
12-05-2011, 05:56 PM
This leads me to ask what is (or is there) the purpose of the illusion free will. Is it an evolutionary design? Simply a coincidence? A bi-product of rational thought?

Isn't all that just the drawback of being intelligent beings? I mean, our ancestors more than likely gave a shit about this stuff. Dogs and cats don't either, and etc. We have the knowledge, and so we question things.

Inksprout
12-05-2011, 07:08 PM
I don't know if it is a drawbakc gunzet, I think it must have evolved for a reason. Humans needed brains that do that sort of thinking for survival, but because we are more intelligent we need a more complex way of understanding the world than a cat or a dog. We have these illusions so that we can understand the world and survive in it.

GunZet
12-05-2011, 07:29 PM
True, although for some people, having that ability to continually analyze and think and think and think just makes em crazy over time, lol. It's all the what if's, sorta depends on the way you are, and mental condition I guess.

Inksprout
12-05-2011, 07:34 PM
Yeah, I think thats also a very important point when you're talking about religion. Science explains a lot about the world but for anyone who was/is ignorant for whatever reason religion is like this massive relief. It says here is how the world and everything in it works and was made, here is what you are supposed to do and not supposed to do, now get on with your lives. Its sort of a quick fix for those who can't or won't seek further knowledge of science (not trying to start a religious row here, everyone know science exists, wether you think it dispproves your religion or not is up to you)

We hurt ourselves though because we love mysteries so much. We start thinking about something we don't know and it can be like picking at a scab. The answer never comes and we snap D:

Kodos
12-05-2011, 08:03 PM
This leads me to ask what is (or is there) the purpose of the illusion free will. Is it an evolutionary design? Simply a coincidence? A bi-product of rational thought?
I think it probably has to do with the fact that the amount of factors that go into the cause-effect relationship of human 'choice' is so fucking enormous that, yeah.
So basically I think it has to do with complexity. But who knows? There's a lot about the brain we don't know.


Does quantum mechanics allow for the existence of free will in the traditional sense?

Part of its definition is that no one outcome can be determined on the subatomic level, only a distribution of probable outcomes. We don't know what influences the ultimate 'decision' of a particle. It could be something related to the mind and consciousness, allowing free will, or it might be completely random, or it might vary depending on circumstances, or any of a number of options.

I'm agnostic but I like to think we have genuine free will.
If quantum mechanics have an element of true randomness or if it does not then free will is still equally illusory. The only difference is whether you are a slave to a predetermined chain of cause-and-effect stretching back to the big bang or if you are a slave to random chance with each cause being generated on the fly.


I'm with Del, I won't underestimate the human brain.
The human brain is still made of matter.

And @Inksprout: It is not up to individuals to decide whether or not science disproves their religion. Facts are facts. Truth is not determined by personal belief.

Inksprout
12-05-2011, 08:06 PM
Yes but Kodos, I'll leave the religious debating up to you in the psalm thread :P

ram
12-05-2011, 08:39 PM
Is it really scientifically impossible for us to have free will?
I thought were just using 10&#37; of our brain, it's just hard for me to accept were just like planets that have it's own orbit or something.
like Ged said it's just depressing for us to think that way, So if it's true or not I choose to believe we have free will.

Call it in-denial but I still know there are a lot of things we can control in this world with our choices, we may not be able to escape the cause and effect rule of the universe but we can still manipulate all of the cause and effect of our lives through good or bad decisions.

Kodos
12-06-2011, 04:12 AM
Is it really scientifically impossible for us to have free will?[quote]
Almost certainly.

[quote]I thought were just using 10&#37; of our brain,
That is a stupid myth and completely untrue.


it's just hard for me to accept were just like planets that have it's own orbit or something.
Well it's true. To argue otherwise is to say "All matter behaves along certain rules except for this piece of matter, here, which is identical to other bits of matter, but exempt from the rules because I don't like the idea of it following the rules."


like Ged said it's just depressing for us to think that way, So if it's true or not I choose to believe we have free will.
My mother died in 2008. I miss her terribly. Not a week goes by that something won't remind me. It is depressing to think that she is dead and I will never be able to share parts of my life with her again, and that she will never be able to see her son get married, grow old, or start a family of his own.
Would you suggest that I refuse to accept the reality of her death, and pretend that my mother is still alive? Are you arguing that it is a reasonable thing for adults to simply ignore unpleasant aspects of reality and live in a fantasy world?


Call it in-denial but I still know there are a lot of things we can control in this world with our choices, we may not be able to escape the cause and effect rule of the universe but we can still manipulate all of the cause and effect of our lives through good or bad decisions.
Your choices are the effects. That's my point. There is no agency. Your behaviors - your 'choices' - are the effects of countless causes ranging from your emotional state at the time, to your genetic makeup, to probably even quantum variances in shit.

ram
12-06-2011, 05:34 AM
oh sorry about the 10&#37; thingy, been watching too many anime that it mixed with my reality. >_>


My mother died in 2008. I miss her terribly. Not a week goes by that something won't remind me. It is depressing to think that she is dead and I will never be able to share parts of my life with her again, and that she will never be able to see her son get married, grow old, or start a family of his own.
Would you suggest that I refuse to accept the reality of her death, and pretend that my mother is still alive? Are you arguing that it is a reasonable thing for adults to simply ignore unpleasant aspects of reality and live in a fantasy world?
Sorry if I happen to remind you on something like that, I'd still argue on that though.

Our every experience changes us to become good or bad,There are a lot of other positive effects in our lives if we happen to accept reality like our love ones dying and stuffs like that.
We learn to be strong when someone who teaches us how to walk are gone, we were able to become better and teach our selves to run our selves that no one teaches us how to.

But to accept something like we have no control over our lives don't have any positive effect.
Don't do anything cause were not in control of our lives is like accepting all the bad effects from the cause and effect laws of the universe.

It maybe an illusion but we all need that illusion.

Inksprout
12-06-2011, 06:33 AM
I think Kodos already pointed this out, but accepting that free will is an illusion does not some how remove the illusion. Even if you admit that scientifically we are all manipulated by factors outside of our control you can still have the illusion as before. In fact its probably impossible for the human mind to completly accept the scientific fact and reject all of the reality we created with these illusions. The science is there, but the 'illusions' are what make up our lives and I doubt we could live without them. Humans need meaning in their lives as well as an understanding of why the world works, so science provides the logical understanding while our human minds and limited perception of reality allow us to create meaning amongst all this science.

GunZet
12-06-2011, 01:12 PM
So then the thread is answered.

Sylux
12-06-2011, 03:59 PM
Yeah basically

Delphinus
12-06-2011, 05:37 PM
Who cares if we have free will? The factors are too myriad for it to make any difference in real terms. On that note:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB7jSFeVz1U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZGINaRUEkU

Kodos
12-06-2011, 08:12 PM
I agree with Del. At the moment this information is just trivia. There is no practical application of the knowledge to be had, and there is no particularly useful insight to be gleaned from it. It's worth knowing for the sake of knowing, but it's not an issue worth wasting time discussing when there's other more interesting subjects which actually do have practical applications.

mery
12-07-2011, 01:55 PM
wah lots of big words, ...couldn't read all the posts sorry, but as i read i was waitin' for someone to say, what's the practical use of knowin the answer...Well cuz , i never thought about it before, just because, in my entire life i did my own choices, based on what i decided was right in the moment , and of course always concidering the consequences of my choice in a long terme....even at the times when i felt life was being unfair to me, or that if things were really up to me it would be a lot better, it turned out not to be so.. at some point i did hve the choice and this was only a consequence of a wrong choice
, we do have the free will to draw to big lines in our lifes, by chosing the kind of person we want to be despite all the circonstances we could never possibly chose.. such as parent, materials etc...

Kodos
12-07-2011, 03:06 PM
wah lots of big words, ...couldn't read all the posts sorry, but as i read i was waitin' for someone to say, what's the practical use of knowin the answer...Well cuz , i never thought about it before, just because, in my entire life i did my own choices, based on what i decided was right in the moment , and of course always concidering the consequences of my choice in a long terme....even at the times when i felt life was being unfair to me, or that if things were really up to me it would be a lot better, it turned out not to be so.. at some point i did hve the choice and this was only a consequence of a wrong choice
, we do have the free will to draw to big lines in our lifes, by chosing the kind of person we want to be despite all the circonstances we could never possibly chose.. such as parent, materials etc...
You don't have the free will to do that because you don't choose the type of person you will be. Genetics, memetics, and other external and internal processes utterly beyond your control (because you have no control over anything) determine that.

Sylux
12-07-2011, 04:09 PM
The self is basically nonexistent - you're just a conglomeration of processes embodying an interactive form. Some cultures and species even on Earth have much different concepts of the self, like bees and Amerindians. The Western concept of self is not really withstandable through varied logic by any means, and is impractical in thought, as proved to us by serial killers, sociopaths, solipsists, and socialists. Instead we should figure out how to speed travel to that shiny new planet Kepler 22-b and colonize that bitch before we become overpopulated or deplete Earth's resources too quickly.

Kodos
12-07-2011, 04:52 PM
I disagree. There is a self. Cogito ergo sum. I think Western ideas on self are actually pretty spot-on, for the most part, at least in how the illusion is and how it perceives itself. Obviously the self is the product of processes and things, but then again organisms are just collections of other, smaller, organisms. A man is simply many cells. The gestalt is real, as are the parts.

Sylux
12-07-2011, 05:05 PM
Well what I was really trying to say was the human self doesn't really matter much to others, especially in this age of increasingly advanced space exploration, and especially in the eyes of serial killers and scene kids. I personally believe each individual's self is important to the self, and the selves of others are important to me. The most stellar example of this is a read that best sums up the general unimportance of the human self: The Call of Cthulhu, which we're all quite familiar with. The human self is a very comforting and usable concept, though, for effective fiction writing, as everyone has a self, and everyone wants to preserve and satiate their self. But even in that case, our utmost priority should be progress and production, because if we bumble about tending to ourselves, not much will quite get done. But even then, it should be up to the self to make that decision.

Fenn
12-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Well what I was really trying to say was the human self doesn't really matter much to others, especially in this age of increasingly advanced space exploration, and especially in the eyes of serial killers and scene kids. I personally believe each individual's self is important to the self, and the selves of others are important to me. The most stellar example of this is a read that best sums up the general unimportance of the human self: The Call of Cthulhu, which we're all quite familiar with. The human self is a very comforting and usable concept, though, for effective fiction writing, as everyone has a self, and everyone wants to preserve and satiate their self. But even in that case, our utmost priority should be progress and production, because if we bumble about tending to ourselves, not much will quite get done. But even then, it should be up to the self to make that decision.

Without self, though, who's to say what's the right goal to pursue? Are you saying just stop worrying about the debate over self, or to deny the self as an entity?

Idk, I'm kinda confused by your message.

Sylux
12-07-2011, 06:21 PM
No, I'm just taking the self from a Cthuvian viewpoint, or a Geth's viewpoint. The Geth are completely assimilated and think as one, and their concept of self is nonexistent, so it isn't everpresent in forms. The same for bees, and Amerindian culture ideologically. But it is argued greatly in many different and varied wordings that the most important thing in life is progress, always progress. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann states this by describing humans as creatures who can do nothing but spiral upwards, like a drill toward the heavens. We should focus on progress toward humanity's future, and our future is in Space. At least, it's the coolest future.

Fenn
12-07-2011, 07:43 PM
No, I'm just taking the self from a Cthuvian viewpoint, or a Geth's viewpoint. The Geth are completely assimilated and think as one, and their concept of self is nonexistent, so it isn't everpresent in forms. The same for bees, and Amerindian culture ideologically. But it is argued greatly in many different and varied wordings that the most important thing in life is progress, always progress. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann states this by describing humans as creatures who can do nothing but spiral upwards, like a drill toward the heavens. We should focus on progress toward humanity's future, and our future is in Space. At least, it's the coolest future.

Gotcha. Although I would argue the brain, the computer, the atom, and the ocean are all frontiers with as much promise as space, I'll save it for another thread. I get your point at least.

Also thank you for reminding me to finish Gurren Lagann.

Sylux
12-07-2011, 08:09 PM
Sure, but space technology is DEPENDENT on the computer and atom, and they dependent on the brain, and if we were to unearth what lies in the Uncharted Lands of the Deep Ocean, I am afraid we would not like what we found...

Inksprout
12-08-2011, 01:01 AM
atlantis?

Sylux
12-08-2011, 01:07 AM
No, no, Atlantis is in the Atlantic, hence its name. The place I'm thinking of is in the South Pacific...

Fenn
12-08-2011, 01:04 PM
Lantern fish?

mery
12-08-2011, 01:10 PM
You don't have the free will to do that because you don't choose the type of person you will be. Genetics, memetics, and other external and internal processes utterly beyond your control (because you have no control over anything) determine that.

well memetics,genetics, no matter how strong their infulence can be ,humans are humans cuz they are self-correcting, always analysing, searching, changing, u can't say that this actions wont define the type of person u will be .

Sylux
12-08-2011, 01:41 PM
I have the burning desire to be emotionally normal. However, I have a chemical imbalance in my brain and I must take medicines to remedy it. Those things are beyond MY control, as in I cannot simply will my chemicals to balance themselves.

mery
12-08-2011, 01:56 PM
taking medecine is a way for change, you decided to be treated, u could have done otherwise ... the scientists and doctors could have done otherwise....but finding a cure came from the burinig desire to control our own destiniy didn't it ?

Sylux
12-08-2011, 02:52 PM
No, it was prescribed to me at about age 6.

Kodos
12-08-2011, 09:14 PM
well memetics,genetics, no matter how strong their infulence can be ,humans are humans cuz they are self-correcting, always analysing, searching, changing, u can't say that this actions wont define the type of person u will be .
Those actions are determined by those factors. 1 + 1 = 2. Period. There is nothing you can say or do to change that fact. The illusion of choice arrives from the fact that there are countless cause-effect reactions taking place producing each and every action, but they are still there.

Sylux
12-08-2011, 09:24 PM
It seems you're all making these factors out to be a bad thing. It isn't like we're constantly faced with great unfamiliarities in our processes, since we react in similar ways to many different things, and we are accustomed to how we process things. Your processes can change with age, but they will still retain familiarity because of the illusion of self. It's a strange thing to have, really, rather than trying to control your different processes. It's like shutting down a computer or booting it up again because of one single process. That's what we have Task Manager for, that's what we have emotional manager for. But alas, you are still comforted by your processes that do not even permit you free will, as you know no other processes inter-personally. So, if not really having free will isn't quite so bad after all, why don't we all just take this thread to General Discussion page greater-than-8.

Evil_Cake
12-08-2011, 09:41 PM
if will isnt free how much does it cost

Inksprout
12-08-2011, 09:45 PM
Doesn't matter, cakes can't buy it anyway.

mery
12-09-2011, 06:02 PM
Those actions are determined by those factors. 1 + 1 = 2. Period. There is nothing you can say or do to change that fact. The illusion of choice arrives from the fact that there are countless cause-effect reactions taking place producing each and every action, but they are still there.

of course , countelss cause_effects are already there..THE outcome is ours to chose, if not ..i dont see what would having free will be then ?...super hero psychic powers ? creating stuff by our will only ?
and Sylux, u didn't directly chose of course, logic thinink starts at 8 anyway, still, in a general way, seekin for a cure ,is the way humanity chose to change the factors they couldn't possibly chose ...

Sylux
12-09-2011, 06:06 PM
of course , countelss cause_effects the outcome are already there..THE outcome is ours to chose, if not ..i dont see what would having free will be then ?...super hero psychic powers ?
No, free will would be: You are purely made up of spirit and will, no chemicals, no muscle, just magick. Magick under your direct control.


and sylux, u didn't directly chose of course, logic thinink starts at 8 anyway, still, in a general way, seekin for a cure ,is the way humanity chose to change the factors they couldn't possibly chose ...
Number one, I didn't choose anything. Number two, I said page, not age. I did not make a typo.

mery
12-10-2011, 04:02 AM
No, free will would be: You are purely made up of spirit and will, no chemicals, no muscle, just magick. Magick under your direct control.


Number one, I didn't choose anything. Number two, I said page, not age. I did not make a typo.

when you define it like that, i guess it's a stupid thing to ask whether we got it or not.. =='
im readig "age" actually

GunZet
12-10-2011, 07:16 AM
Man, listening to you guys go at it is like listening to a bunch of chemicals bounce off of each other. Gawd.

Kodos
12-10-2011, 07:24 AM
of course , countelss cause_effects are already there..THE outcome is ours to chose, if not ..i dont see what would having free will be then ?...super hero psychic powers ? creating stuff by our will only ?
and Sylux, u didn't directly chose of course, logic thinink starts at 8 anyway, still, in a general way, seekin for a cure ,is the way humanity chose to change the factors they couldn't possibly chose ...
You don't have any choice. You don't choose an outcome. The outcome is the effect. You have no free will, you have no choice. There is ultimately no difference between human behavior and the behavior of an object falling when dropped. The only difference is the number of causes at play producing the observed effect. That's it. Matter is matter is matter.

Every element that produces human consciousness is either made of matter or reactions involving matter. Matter obeys physical laws unfailingly and without choice. Chemical Y when introduced to Chemical X produces reaction Z. Period. There is no way to rescue free will from the reality of causality and physical law. There is no choice.

Fenn
12-10-2011, 12:31 PM
And now for the real question: do you take the red pill, or the blue pill?

Ozzaharwood
12-10-2011, 01:11 PM
You don't have any choice. You don't choose an outcome. The outcome is the effect. You have no free will, you have no choice. There is ultimately no difference between human behavior and the behavior of an object falling when dropped. The only difference is the number of causes at play producing the observed effect. That's it. Matter is matter is matter.

Every element that produces human consciousness is either made of matter or reactions involving matter. Matter obeys physical laws unfailingly and without choice. Chemical Y when introduced to Chemical X produces reaction Z. Period. There is no way to rescue free will from the reality of causality and physical law. There is no choice.

You can't compare fixed laws that make up the universe with a decision to be made by a human being. They aren't the same thing. A conscious mind is able to make it's own decisions, while matter has to follow a set of rules. Even if you wanted to compare, I could say that there are multiple different outcomes each time I do a science experiment when doing everything exactly the same. Same with humans. There are multiple different choices to be made, and the choice is up to that person, not a set of rules that the universe dictates, nor that a God dictates. It may seem to you that every choice is pre-determined because every action that is done can not be undone, but that's just pessimistic and unrealistic. We have the power to think, to base our decisions on information gathered, and come out with the best outcome. Sometimes we take risks, and sometimes we don't think things through. There are many factors that can change an outcome, but little to none are fixed. They are all variables in which we—humans—make ourselves. When there are variables in a math equation, the outcome can be changed. Same goes with decisions.

GunZet
12-10-2011, 01:25 PM
I like what Ozz said, and I wish it could hold steady. But the fact of the matter is that the universe is telling Kodos to type up a rebuttal this,
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/1885/1d653fe064742a134815264.jpg
very,
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/1885/1d653fe064742a134815264.jpg
moment.
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1885/1d653fe064742a134815264.jpg

ClockHand
12-10-2011, 01:26 PM
The choice made by the person is just the reflect of the elements that interact in his brain.

Sylux
12-10-2011, 02:57 PM
You can't compare fixed laws that make up the universe with a decision to be made by a human being. They aren't the same thing. A conscious mind is able to make it's own decisions, while matter has to follow a set of rules. Even if you wanted to compare, I could say that there are multiple different outcomes each time I do a science experiment when doing everything exactly the same. Same with humans. There are multiple different choices to be made, and the choice is up to that person, not a set of rules that the universe dictates, nor that a God dictates. It may seem to you that every choice is pre-determined because every action that is done can not be undone, but that's just pessimistic and unrealistic. We have the power to think, to base our decisions on information gathered, and come out with the best outcome. Sometimes we take risks, and sometimes we don't think things through. There are many factors that can change an outcome, but little to none are fixed. They are all variables in which we—humans—make ourselves. When there are variables in a math equation, the outcome can be changed. Same goes with decisions.
A conscience is a moral distinguishment, not a feeling of existence and power over existence, which is what we're talking about here. So, if you've been shot, can you will your wounds to close in an instant? If not, you don't have free will. If so, please videotape it for me.

By the way, what Clock said has basically summed up Kodos's argument this whole time.

Fenn
12-10-2011, 03:35 PM
A conscience is a moral distinguishment, not a feeling of existence and power over existence, which is what we're talking about here. So, if you've been shot, can you will your wounds to close in an instant? If not, you don't have free will. If so, please videotape it for me.

By the way, what Clock said has basically summed up Kodos's argument this whole time.

Wait, when did we decide free will included power over existence? I thought it was just the ability to make choices.

Sylux
12-10-2011, 06:02 PM
No, because your will is really irrelevant and pointless to talk about unless it can actually do something. Will really can't do anything at all, especially so if you take a Universal perspective.

Kodos
12-10-2011, 08:55 PM
You can't compare fixed laws that make up the universe with a decision to be made by a human being. They aren't the same thing.
Except they are. A Human is subject to the fixed laws of the universe! That's the whole point! You are literally arguing "Everything in the universe follows natural laws except people. Because."


A conscious mind is able to make it's own decisions, while matter has to follow a set of rules.
No it is not. You are begging the question. You are literally just tossing out your conclusion without offering any evidence and ignoring the mountains of evidence against it.


Even if you wanted to compare, I could say that there are multiple different outcomes each time I do a science experiment when doing everything exactly the same.
No there are not. If you get every single variable the same then every single time the outcome will be exactly the same. Period. The reason human behavior seems more unpredictable is because there are so many more variables at play and most of them are hideously complex and poorly understood.


Same with humans. There are multiple different choices to be made, and the choice is up to that person, not a set of rules that the universe dictates, nor that a God dictates. It may seem to you that every choice is pre-determined because every action that is done can not be undone, but that's just pessimistic and unrealistic.
It's unrealistic to assume that humans are part of reality and play by the same rules as every other part of reality ?_?


We have the power to think, to base our decisions on information gathered, and come out with the best outcome.
We have the power to come to conclusions based on information gathered and a slew of other factors which are all beyond our control, reaching a conclusion that was ultimately inevitable based on the factors. If each of those factors could somehow be reproduced we would reach that conclusion each and every time.


Sometimes we take risks, and sometimes we don't think things through. There are many factors that can change an outcome, but little to none are fixed. They are all variables in which we—humans—make ourselves. When there are variables in a math equation, the outcome can be changed. Same goes with decisions.
Agani, begging the question.

Saith
12-10-2011, 09:03 PM
Shit, I know this one!
Gimme a sec.
...
Fuck, I lost it.

Saith
12-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Serious post: I am a soft determinist. I believe that though there are limits to our choice - I cannot, for example, choose to fly under my own volition - we do still have a choice - I can, for example, choose to jump out of a window and try to fly.
I guess, in a sense, our 'hardware' provides hard limits on what we can and will do. I do not think, though, that circumstances force us to act in certain ways. While I'll always fall if I jump out of a window, the choice to jump is mine and mine alone. Circumstances can influence that choice - a dare, a bet, a crushing debt - but ultimately, it's my decision.
Hence free will.

Kodos
12-10-2011, 09:30 PM
Except the choice to jump out the window was not a choice. It was inevitable the outcome of a chain of causal events. Your genetic makeup, your emotional state, your mental state, and countless other things (not that these 'causes' themselves have causes) all led to this outcome. It's quite possible given the way particles interact that literally every human 'choice' is the result of a causal chain literally stretching back to the big bang, in some way.

Man, you guys are going to force me to fucking dig up papers I wrote on this shit.

Saith
12-10-2011, 09:47 PM
But it wasn't inevitable. I could totally just choose not to do so. I'm choosing not to do so, right now! Sure, you could try to argue that that's inevitable, but dude. That's ridiculous. That's totally being all 'AHAHA I GUESSED WRONG ON PURPOSE. I TOTALLY KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO DO THAT THING THAT I DIDN'T SEE COMING' level of ridiculous. I can't think of anything to say, other than arguing that anything you do, you were going to do otherwise, without a scrap of evidence other than 'I totally fucking called it' is kind of dickish. It's like arguing that blue tastes like cheese, or that happiness sounds like nails on a chalkboard. It's really not worthwhile, and is based on almost nothing but faith.

ClockHand
12-10-2011, 09:54 PM
It's not about knowing or not knowing (us), is about that your decision is just the reflect of the events in your brain. Let's say this, you got home and you find a guy who just killed your lover, your reactions are going to be A) Rage, B) Paralysis or C) Negation (yes, there are more, but its enough with those). If you enter in a rage state, its because X chemicals are reaction on your brain that are provoking you to enter in a rage state, the level on the stage or better say, every decision you are making is just the cause of X chemicals reacting in your brain so killing the killer or forgiving him is determined on the chemicals not in your personal choice. You could take any possible effect that the situation could cause and at the end the process would be the same, X,Y,B or any chemical will react in your brain and your final action is just going to be the reflect of that.

GunZet
12-10-2011, 10:02 PM
Except the choice to jump out the window was not a choice. It was inevitable the outcome of a chain of causal events. Your genetic makeup, your emotional state, your mental state, and countless other things (not that these 'causes' themselves have causes) all led to this outcome. It's quite possible given the way particles interact that literally every human 'choice' is the result of a causal chain literally stretching back to the big bang, in some way.

Man, you guys are going to force me to fucking dig up papers I wrote on this shit.

Couldn't you just choose to jump out just cause? Cause I mean...you could.

Saith
12-10-2011, 10:03 PM
Sure, okay.
And what I'm saying is that that's Ontological Argument levels of bullshittery.
Ignoring the problems of that specific example, the entire theory is just... Unconvincing. At first glance, it might seem logically sound, but on some instinctual level, I Know it's wrong. With a capital K.
It's the same thing with the Ontological argument. After reading it, well, God must exist! Of course!
You throw your tobacco tin in the air with shock!
'By Jove!' you exclaim, 'The Ontological Argument is sound!'
And then you go home, and you think about it for a little while, maybe when you're showering, maybe when you're trying to sleep, and there's something about it that's just... Wrong. How can a simple word game prove the existence of a deity? Even if you cannot come up with a complaint, you just know that it's wrong.

But okay, as Hume said, 'ought implies could'. In any situation that you could do something, you also had the ability to not do something. I know it's all cool and edgy and makes you look like a rockstar when you try to argue against free will. Chicks dig determinism, after all. But in the end, when all is said and done, anything you do, you have the capacity to simply... Not do. Any decision, no matter how small, gave you the capacity to choose not to make it. Whenever you think back on a situation, and in hindsight, you realise you made the wrong decision, implies that you could have made another. Now, regret is a word, and so it's not something that only I feel, therefore, other people must be able to feel it. In that case, people think back on actions, and wish they had chosen something else. Doing that shows there was another course of action to take - for otherwise, there would be nothing to regret! You would wish a decision had turned out differently, but you wouldn't despise your own actions! No, you know that there was something else you could have done, and you [i]chose[i] not to.

Kodos
12-10-2011, 10:07 PM
The ontological argument is wrong because existence is not, in and of itself, a quality.

Look, I can't make it any more simple than this.
Premise 1: Human consciousness is a product of electrochemical reactions taking place within the body.
Premise 2: The body is made of matter.
Premise 3: Matter obeys certain physical rules unfailingly. When all factors are replicated identically, the outcome of a given force or reaction acting on matter will always be the same.
Premise 4: Chemical reactions obey certain physical rules unfailingly. When all factors are replicated identically, the outcome of a given reaction will always be the same.
Conclusion: Human consciousness obeys certain physical rules unfailingly. When all factors are replicated identically, the outcome of a given 'choice' will always be the same.

ClockHand
12-10-2011, 10:08 PM
the capacity to simple not do, is just reflect of the same process that are happening on your brain, and there is no moment when those process are not happening. Those process have their cause and so the level of the process also have a cause.

Saith
12-10-2011, 10:26 PM
But that's the thing. The Ontological Argument seems sound when you play by its rules - when you look at it from a different perspective it just feels wrong. There're many reasons why it doesn't work, and yet none of those reasons could ever apply to it if you play by its rules. It's like arguing about Israel and Palestine, with a guy who keeps bringing up Hitler.

The ways in which the same stimuli might be evaluated in different minds could produce massively different outcomes.
I mean, okay, so you're arguing simple cause and effect. That everything that happens must have a cause, and that said cause will always produce the same outcome in identical conditions. I'm trying to find a way to gradually segue into Quantum Physics, but I can't, so fuck it. I'm pretty sure the whole 'atoms produced from nowhere with no reason' aspect of QP kind of shags cause and effect in the eye socket.

Kodos
12-10-2011, 10:41 PM
Quantum randomness would mean nothing for the existence of free will except that you are a slave to random chance rather than to causality. There is still no agency. I already addressed that.

And the ontological argument fails because the rules it is playing by are complete and utter bullshit. You have not addressed my argument above.

Delphinus
12-11-2011, 07:54 AM
Hey, if you like I can dig up the reason every single form of the Ontological Argument is bullshit. Revision notes are a great thing.

EDIT: So basically, screw 'feels wrong', 'is wrong' is closer to the mark.

Sylux
12-11-2011, 01:34 PM
And the ontological argument fails because the rules it is playing by are complete and utter bullshit. You have not addressed my argument above.
I think they're really focused more on proving themselves right, than educating themselves on why they're wrong.

DemonChild101
12-11-2011, 02:46 PM
Well I havent read the whole ummm... forum conversation cuz its 11 pgs long but the question is
"Do we have free will??"
i think we do. I believe in god and i believe he is a loving god. I do not believe we are predestined. and who is to say we didnt choose where we were to b born or what family to b born to? for all we know we just dont remember. cuz god knows i dont remember my life as a an infant. As for free will i believe we do have it. although we dont know the outcome of our actions or what reactions others will have to our actions thats just the ucontrolable factor to free will. You will never know what someone else will do with their free will. but thats just my veiw and i cant tell you what to believe thats up to you. honestly the only advise i can give i do what you believe. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN IT THAN WHY ARE YOU LIVING THAT WAY??

ClockHand
12-11-2011, 02:50 PM
Oh man this is going to get funny.

Now, on serious mode. Please read the whole thread before doing a post, people are just forcing others to repeat their previews arguments.

DemonChild101
12-11-2011, 02:58 PM
oh well that sucks... im just putting in my 2 sense

Delphinus
12-11-2011, 04:32 PM
I'm too acerbic to answer DemonChild101. To whoever chooses to: be nice, I think they're young.

CypressDahlia
12-11-2011, 04:49 PM
hypothetical? If I smiled at you and said I was happy, and you knew the exact chemical composure of my endocrine and nervous system at that moment, would you tell me that I'm actually sad, or angry or nervous, or scared? That I could not choose to be happy?

Sylux
12-11-2011, 06:01 PM
Are you dumb? It's not hard to understand. You do not have control over your body, because you are fragmented, and not really one entire entity. You're made up of little pieces that do their jobs differently and have different wear and tear on them, and different failures that are physically inevitable. This is all dominated by simple building-blocks logic, it really isn't that hard. You just have to accept that your responses are always going to be exactly what they are in specific situations preceded by other specific situations and factors of use and ability, which have culminated over your lifetime and cannot be changed without other specific events occurring or being made to occur in order to modify the usage and makeup of the different parts that compose your reaction sequences.

Delphinus
12-11-2011, 07:20 PM
It's not hard to understand.


You just have to accept that your responses are always going to be exactly what they are in specific situations preceded by other specific situations and factors of use and ability, which have culminated over your lifetime and cannot be changed without other specific events occurring or being made to occur in order to modify the usage and makeup of the different parts that compose your reaction sequences.

This is going to that quotes thread

Kodos
12-11-2011, 09:24 PM
Well I havent read the whole ummm... forum conversation cuz its 11 pgs long but the question is
"Do we have free will??"
You should at least skim the last 3-5 pages. I don't always read massive threads from start to finish either, but I usually read at least the first page and the last few pages. Just so I know what's going on.


i think we do. I believe in god and i believe he is a loving god.
As Adam Savage would say - we'll there's your problem right there! Also the existence of the Judeo-Christian is absolutely 100% completely impossible because it is logically contradictory, so extrapolating if-then situations from the hypothetical can be a bit silly and a bit difficult, but if the Judeo-Christian God existed then we would be slaves not only to causality but also to the whims of an insane and sadistic tyrant in the sky.


I do not believe we are predestined.

and who is to say we didnt choose where we were to b born or what family to b born to? for all we know we just dont remember.[/quote]
"I chose to be born an infant in 1941 Germany. I managed to live a whopping 3 months before being tossed in an oven. In hindsight, it wasn't the best of choices."


cuz god knows i dont remember my life as a an infant.
Saying that "maybe this situation happened but no body knows!" is a logical fallacy called an appeal to ignorance. That means it's a terrible argument and not one you ought be making.


As for free will i believe we do have it. although we dont know the outcome of our actions or what reactions others will have to our actions thats just the ucontrolable factor to free will. You will never know what someone else will do with their free will. but thats just my veiw and i cant tell you what to believe thats up to you. honestly the only advise i can give i do what you believe. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN IT THAN WHY ARE YOU LIVING THAT WAY??
Reality is not determined by belief. We live in reality, not on Discworld, not in Mundus, not in TTGL, not in the setting of my DnD campaigns. Belief has no effect on reality, and if our beliefs are not rooted in reality then we are simply setting ourselves up for disappointment, failure, and probably misery.

CypressDahlia
12-12-2011, 12:17 AM
the point of asking a hypothetical question, Sylux, is to get a hypothetical answer. I didn't ask you to restate everything you said before, so I don't know why you're acting like your balls just got busted. besides, you didn't even answer my question what is this man.

Inksprout
12-12-2011, 06:10 AM
hypothetical? If I smiled at you and said I was happy, and you knew the exact chemical composure of my endocrine and nervous system at that moment, would you tell me that I'm actually sad, or angry or nervous, or scared? That I could not choose to be happy?

I'll try answer your question from how I understand it. You CAN choose to be happy and that would effect the chemicals in your body and your nervous system so that they would reflect your decision to be happy. However the point Sylux and Kodos are trying to make is that its not just the physical state of your body at any one point in time that means you don't have free will. They are talking about how every single thing that happens in your life leads to the same outcome at any given moment. So the REASON you want to decide to be happy is what is beyond your control. The decision itself is shaped by millions of other factors that are beyond your control so that someone who was genetically and biologically the same as you, who lived the exact same life as you would react in the exact same way that you did just then. In this manner there is no free will because you are simply a by product of all that has occured at every level of the world.

GunZet
12-12-2011, 06:51 AM
What I don't get here is why the topic is still being discussed if more than 80&#37; of the people making an argument here agree on the same thing. <s>Woops, off subject, my bad.</s> Maybe we could talk about will instead of choice, I'm interested in what comes out of that.

CypressDahlia
12-12-2011, 07:21 AM
In this manner there is no free will because you are simply a by product of all that has occured at every level of the world.

In theory maybe, but I can't imagine that ever being recreated or represented in anything but general trends. And even then, trends among people with similar lifestyles and genetics are mostly the effects of societal influence, but I wouldn't chalk it up to "destiny". Considering that the human brain produces 10^16 synapse processes per second, to say that every single one would be the same is kind of absurd in its own way. What I was actually asking is, if you had all the necessary information to determine how I would feel at any exact moment, would you dispute my claim that I was happy? Furthermore, if my choices are just the results of various circumstances, what happens if I choose to actively change the circumstances? If I moved houses, or got new shoes, or wore new cologne. Then aren't future choices I make just a byproduct of a choice I made earlier?

ram
12-13-2011, 05:09 AM
You know this makes me think...
If we do have free will(against Kodos theory) that would mean the future would be continuously changing every time and every second of our lives.

But if we have don't have free will(based on kodos theory) that would mean time would be in just one line and time machine might even be possible in the far future.

tagYURIT
12-13-2011, 07:19 AM
I think your premises are based on opinions. you should state facts. . if you'll ask diff persons about those things. .there will definitely someone who will disagree. . .you shouldn't use the term premise. .coz a premise is used to prove that the conclusion is true. .(sorry. .em talkin nonsense again. . .i just read that from a book . . .)

ram
12-13-2011, 08:15 AM
I didn't state premise did I?
I'm not an elitist so I keep my personality and just adopt what I want to adopt.
although I have to admit that some of my statements lack of logic, but putting premise and conclusion wouldn't fix that.

Kodos
12-13-2011, 10:35 AM
You know this makes me think...
If we do have free will(against Kodos theory) that would mean the future would be continuously changing every time and every second of our lives.

But if we have don't have free will(based on kodos theory) that would mean time would be in just one line and time machine might even be possible in the far future.
Time travels still probably wouldn't be possible because of causality. Also additional strong evidence against time travel in the fact that the present is not inundated with time travelers from the future.

ClockHand
12-13-2011, 11:42 AM
Ram@ Watch Primer.

Time travel is impossible, as Kodo said, there is no evidence of it in our present. Also because Time Travel recognize time as lineal and homogeneous, but we all know that is not the case.

Fenn
12-13-2011, 12:32 PM
Off-topic, but you CAN theoretically slow down time, or rather, slow your travel through time by approaching the speed of light. It's not time travel, but it'd be pretty cool.

As for free will, as much as we DON'T have it physically, perceptually it it definitely there. If we're going to continue this thread it's practical to talk about THAT type of free will, the ability to make conscious decisions, even if our conscious it technically a slave to causality.

BozeSG
12-13-2011, 01:34 PM
we and our "free will" are just ultra complex sub reactions resulting from big-bang? i really don't have anything to say against that but one thing that really bugs me is experience and memory, for example if we put two identical people with the same amount of chemicals existing in their bodies in a similar life or death situation, they react differently based on their experience and one might die because of the choice he makes and the other might live. doesn't that practically mean that someone can make different decisions based on his past memories? and if so, won't that mean that they have the ability to choose different options and doesn't that mean that they have free will?

ClockHand
12-13-2011, 01:40 PM
Because the production of X chemical in his brain is conditioned by the life experience of the individual.

BozeSG
12-13-2011, 04:17 PM
yeah i have a problem with that too, how does your mind exactly know when to get conditioned and how to get conditioned? just after seeing a picture made from colours? does it know that this set of colours are supposed to make him sad? happy? angry? "mind is just reacting chemicals" won't add up with that...

ClockHand
12-13-2011, 04:39 PM
Example:
X color is a phenomena that you are exposed, the X color provoke you at a cognitive and unconscious level, this provocation is made by the production of chemistry and sinapsis in your brain made by the exposition to the phenomena. Then your decision to do or to feel after been exposed to that phenomena, es just the reflex of the process your brain had in the moment of the exposition.

We could say you saw your father die in a young age, you related the color red (blood?) to that memory, so when you see red or blood, under X conditions your brain trigger the memory (or the feeling of the memory) and so you become a victim of causality.

But also this work in a not so dramatic condition, we associate things constantly and some authors believe we have global associations.

BozeSG
12-14-2011, 06:05 AM
I'm talking about cognition, not emotions. if our brain can only understand things based on colours then if someone with a clourful shirt murders your whole family, you'd be experincing the greatest joy ever. im asking how can the brain (a set of chemical reactions as you call it) understand the meaning behind this set of colours and something that s by no means in direct interaction with...