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Hell_Baron
09-06-2011, 09:22 PM
I'm pretty sure that we all once played a game in wich a certain moment affected us emotionaly. It either made you cry like a little bitch or simply left you shocked...

oh and just a little reminder: THE DEATH OF AERIS IN FF7 IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT THAT SHOCKING ANYMORE SEEN AS EVERY-FUCKING-BODY KNOWS SHE WAS STABBED BY A HIGHLY OVERRATED VILLAIN NAMED SEPHIROTH AND WAS LATER UNINTENTIONALLY DROWNED BY CLOUD.

anyway, my favorite is from the game Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey for DS.
The basic plot of this is that you're sent along with a team of highly skilled specialists, scientists and militaries into a vortex named "The Zwartzwelt" which is slowly consuming the earth starting with the southpole. naturely shit hits the fan, people die and you're onboard of the only ship that survives.
however, after a short while, when you start exploring the Zwartzwelt, it's becoming more obvious that you are quitte literally in hell. Now this is where it gets interesting... all of these "sectors" represent the sins of humanity, which in turn strongly resemble The Godly Comedy (A.K.A Dante's Inferno). Now for my favorite part: the game actually fucks you over into the choice of actually killing earth by the way you play. for example if you play a Goody-Two Shoes kind of character you actually get fucked over into enslaving all of humanity to god. like forever. without dying.
that's where you come to the realisation that doing the right thing isn't that good at all. i was kinda shocked because of this, probably because of being raised on sugarcoated hollywood crap and being raised as a christian when i was younger.
in fact Satan was actually more reasonable, seen as she (yes, this satan is a she) wanted a world where everyone was free of all stuck-up religious rules and values and people would actually die instead of religious fairytale crap about immortality.

It was probably the first time a game actually made me think about stuff like this.

so how about you guys?

ClockHand
09-06-2011, 09:36 PM
Inspector Gadget.

jubeh
09-06-2011, 09:41 PM
Hell baron why dont you put your spoilers in fucking spoiler tags.

Hell_Baron
09-06-2011, 09:46 PM
Hell baron why dont you put your spoilers in fucking spoiler tags.

OH SHI- Thanks for the heads up, it's fixed now. sorry if i ruined any interest in playing it.

GunZet
09-06-2011, 11:50 PM
FFVII, EarthBound(Mother2), StarFox SNES. And more recently, Unreal Tournament 2004, why? Because when I got my hands on the demo to that game, it opened my eyes to a whole new world of art and design, therefore effectively pushing me to make my choice in employing m art skills towards concept art. After that more and more Epic games influenced me, mainly Gears of War, and then from there, Bullet Storm and etc.

Sylux
09-07-2011, 06:27 AM
Mass Effect cuz I realized RPGs really can be the most badass genre plus MGS3 in a small way because I now am seriously considering wilderness survival as a gameplay option

Fenn
09-07-2011, 09:40 AM
Fire Emblem 7 opened my eyes to the world of RPGs. The characters, the gameplay, the anime art style, the cliche yet epic storyline, the host of secret chapters, allies, and items, even the freaking SOUND TEST! The world just came to life in my head.

CypressDahlia
09-07-2011, 04:42 PM
Every waking second that I played co-op Earth Defense Force 2017 on its highest difficulty helped me realize that games don't particularly need to be polished or pretty to be the best thing ever. What games need to do is attack you in the glands and get your adrenaline pumping. EDF 2017 is one of the finest examples of "just plain fun" to exist--ever.

Gedeon
09-07-2011, 06:01 PM
Heavenly sword...mainly cuz its a first game that i played where the protagonist dies in the end AFTER beating the bady and AFTER helping just half of her village survive and Little big planet.......still can't beat the last level......... ._. ..........i should kill myself. I never thought that a game meant purely for creativity would be so hard.............

jubeh
09-07-2011, 06:04 PM
Sweet, more untagged spoilers

ClockHand
09-07-2011, 06:16 PM
You are mod, do something!!!! DO SOMETHING!!!! think in the childs.

Evil_Cake
09-07-2011, 06:26 PM
think in them

Hell_Baron
09-07-2011, 06:36 PM
think in them

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/235-pedobear-drooling.jpg

Gedeon
09-07-2011, 07:06 PM
First ^LOL
second i have no idea how to put spoilers =w=

jubeh
09-07-2011, 07:24 PM
Now that you have acknowledged this weakness in your character you can refrain from ever posting spoilers then.

Hell_Baron
09-07-2011, 07:31 PM
First ^LOL
second i have no idea how to put spoilers =w=

it's quitte simple:



just add these tags and anything between them will be marked as spoiler.

Superdooperphailmachine
09-07-2011, 07:32 PM
Put it in between [Spoiler] [/Spoiler ]

Edit, Beaten to the punch.

Gedeon
09-08-2011, 05:15 AM
OK Thanks HEY it works :D

Sylux
09-08-2011, 01:56 PM
Wow my dad picked up Heavenly Sword for me to play when I visit him next good job Gedeon you ruined it all

T1B3R1U5
09-08-2011, 02:07 PM
TESIV: Oblivion is just one of the few games that really helped me open my eyes to a whole range of genre's of games. Oh and does anyone own a japanese game? I own Ninety-Nine Nights in the orginal japanese format.

ClockHand
09-08-2011, 03:40 PM
TESIV: Oblivion is just one of the few games that really helped me open my eyes to a whole range of genre's of games. Oh and does anyone own a japanese game? I own Ninety-Nine Nights in the orginal japanese format.

Funny that one of the worsts rpgs in the world opened your eyes.

Gedeon
09-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Wow my dad picked up Heavenly Sword for me to play when I visit him next good job Gedeon you ruined it all

You are LYING!!!!!

Rio
09-08-2011, 08:23 PM
Phantasy Star IV when...

Alys died.

DAMMIT!!! She was my favorite character there. ;_; I almost wanted to quit playing the game.

Ozzaharwood
09-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Funny that one of the worsts rpgs in the world opened your eyes.

Funny that one of the worst RPG's in the world was also one of the most popular. XD

Anyway, I think I have to say Super Mario 64. Going from the Super Nintendo and it's 2D pixelated graphics to a full 3D and amazing gameplay (at the time) was revolutionary and it blew my mind. That was also one of the few games I 100% completed.

Fenn
09-08-2011, 08:35 PM
So how much shit am I gonna get if I say Mario Kart?

GunZet
09-08-2011, 10:30 PM
TESIV: Oblivion is just one of the few games that really helped me open my eyes to a whole range of genre's of games. Oh and does anyone own a japanese game? I own Ninety-Nine Nights in the orginal japanese format.

Only original Japanese format game I got is Kidou Senshi Gundam Seed Destiny for GBA emulator. Pretty awesome game.

Ozzaharwood
09-08-2011, 11:15 PM
I have touhou, if that counts. Plus a few VNs.

ClockHand
09-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Funny that one of the worst RPG's in the world was also one of the most popular. XD


The same goes for COD MW.

Why Oblivion suck assholes:
1. Your character is a moron who says nothing in the whole story and who can change the mind of other character with crappy minigame system or doing their quest (which miraculous are going to change the personality of the NPC with no sign of reflection).
2. The mele combat system is just Block -> Hit, then repeat.
3. You can't play it in third person; if you are a warrior you can't aim the enemies and if you are a wizard or a archer you can't aim enemies.
4. The whole story is retarded, it start with you in a jail/dungeon, the king comes (wtf?) and tell you "you are the one of my dreams", then he die and give you the quest to find his heir. Do the main quest to find that at the end everything is fixed by one of the biggest Ex Machina of all times.
5. Unnecessary side quests.
6. Broken level up system.
7. Teleportation kills the idea of a epic journey.
8. Crappy NPC (you have necrophilic dark elf).
9. Useless Factions (you can form part of the fighter guilds, mage guild, thief guild and assassin guilds, but none of these mater at the end).
10. 6 races are useless and 2 are broken.

I could keep going, the game is just awful.

jubeh
09-08-2011, 11:35 PM
Phantasy Star IV when...

Alys died.

DAMMIT!!! She was my favorite character there. ;_; I almost wanted to quit playing the game.

Man you knew it was coming if you played the previous phantasy stars. Always gotta kill of somebody cool and always gotta trick you into thinking you know how the final boss will be.

CypressDahlia
09-08-2011, 11:55 PM
I own tons of Japanese indie games but I never play epic games with long stories and lots of dialog without a proper translation.

jubeh
09-08-2011, 11:57 PM
I have the kamen rider kabuto game. Anyone else still think they're cool.

:cool:

CypressDahlia
09-09-2011, 12:17 AM
I have a couple of Kamen Rider fighters.

jubeh
09-09-2011, 12:23 AM
Which ones

CypressDahlia
09-09-2011, 04:47 AM
Well, the one I most recently played is the OOOO one for PSP. With all of the series in it.

Gedeon
09-09-2011, 05:36 AM
Why does clock hate on Oblivion?

CypressDahlia
09-09-2011, 12:35 PM
Naw, it's not just Clock. I'm also part of that group.

T1B3R1U5
09-09-2011, 01:17 PM
o.o i guess i should've keep my mouth shut for Oblivion...I own a few Shin Megami Tensei's in Japanese format as well as a few others that I can't remember atm. Although, I do agree with the whole "Oblivion sucks" crap, but its the only RPG i have for the time being.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 01:30 PM
I forgive you for not knowing the whole world of magic and sword that there is outside of the Oblivion (jaja).

T1B3R1U5
09-09-2011, 01:39 PM
I'm sure there is alot I don't know about yet xD

jubeh
09-09-2011, 01:47 PM
You guys are being needlessly hard on a game thats 5 years old and was highly ambitious. Not everything can be morrowind and its not like morrowind ceased to exist. You can still play it.

T1B3R1U5
09-09-2011, 02:05 PM
You guys are being needlessly hard on a game thats 5 years old and was highly ambitious. Not everything can be morrowind and its not like morrowind ceased to exist. You can still play it.

Good point there. I do own Morrowind but unfortunately it no longer works on my system.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 02:08 PM
If a game is highly ambitious and doesn't delivery doesn't that make it fails?

Also there are older games way better than Oblivion, saying that it has 5 years old doesn't really justify the crappyness.

T1B3R1U5
09-09-2011, 02:16 PM
There are better games out there besides Oblivion. Yes it is crappy and deserves such title, but some are just more i dont know loyal(?) ot the series i guess. I guess i'm gonna have to order a pizza and start grinding with my lvl. 20 Warrior on WoW....

GunZet
09-09-2011, 02:16 PM
The whole point with ambitious games is that they tried something different. Win or fail, they went for it, can't knock it for trying, even if it did suck. Brink did have me on a roll for a bit though.

T1B3R1U5
09-09-2011, 02:30 PM
The whole point with ambitious games is that they tried something different. Win or fail, they went for it, can't knock it for trying, even if it did suck.

Very True, very true. I can't argue with that.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 02:35 PM
Where is the innovation in Oblivion? Does the innovation delivery?

When a game does a innovation as Brink, Eternal Sonata, Deus Ex (the first) and other games, you have to ask your self if the innovation really does a change in the game and delivery a different and enjoyable experience. For my Oblivion fails in many ways, even in the innovation, and its one of those games that have made my feel raped after I bought them (as Final Fantasy XIII did my felt to), and obviously I'm going to hate it for my entire life.

jubeh
09-09-2011, 02:44 PM
If a game is highly ambitious and doesn't delivery doesn't that make it fails?

It absolutely delivered. They wanted to make an rpg in a massive world and they succeeded. They also succeeded in making the game more accessible to new players.


Also there are older games way better than Oblivion, saying that it has 5 years old doesn't really justify the crappyness.

The only games older than oblivion that tried to do the same things oblivion did are its prequels. Just because mario is fuckawesome doesn't mean that oblivion is meant to hold up to the same standard.

CypressDahlia
09-09-2011, 02:48 PM
TBH, I just hate it because it was an interactive storybook billed as an RPG.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 02:50 PM
WOW was released in the 2004, and gave players a mmorpg with open world in 3D graphics and plenty of quests to rol (and almost balanced characters and races).

Oblivion was released in the 2006, and gave players a open rpg (and everything else faild).

We also have Mass Effect (2007) and Fallout 3 (2008).

jubeh
09-09-2011, 02:54 PM
WOW was released in the 2004, and gave players a mmorpg with open world in 3D graphics and plenty of quests to rol (and almost balanced characters and races).

This is a joke right they are not similar at all.


Oblivion was released in the 2006, and gave players a open rpg (and everything else faild).

Everything else failed? Its a perfectly average game by any standards.


We also have Mass Effect (2007) and Fallout 3 (2008).

Okay? These came afterwards, one isn't open world at all and one of them was built on the same engine as oblivion was. What were you trying to prove here.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 02:56 PM
Do you truly find Oblivion a average game by any standards?

jubeh
09-09-2011, 02:58 PM
Absolutely

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 03:01 PM
Then all the points I gave why Oblivion sucks wouldn't mind you in any game, you would probably feel like are normal and wouldn't change your game experience.

Apparently I have quiet big standards in video games, and all those points are just my standards being very picky with the game.

jubeh
09-09-2011, 03:11 PM
See that argument doesn't really work if you judge a game by the experience it offers as a whole. For instance human revolution is good in spite of its boss battles. It's not a bad game by any means. But if zelda had boss battles that were as bad as that it would probably not get so much forgiveness since boss battles are a big part of what makes zelda good. A game like deadly premonition can be fundamentally bad but still be awesome because it just throws the balls to the walls and the creator understand interactivity on a level that some people could only hope to achieve.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 03:13 PM
Deus Ex HR fails at bosses, but the point of the game is the infiltration part.
Oblivion fails in the rpg experience (see my points), but the point of the game is... ?

jubeh
09-09-2011, 03:17 PM
To go on an adventure?

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 03:26 PM
and how does Oblivion delivery a good adventure? (I have pointed that the combat system fails, the npc's are awful, the story is bad, the teleportation kills the idea of a epic journey, and if you want I can keep going saying that there is no cohesion in the world [you jump from a gothic to a japanese architecture in different cities which are under a same realm)

jubeh
09-09-2011, 03:35 PM
You dont need any of that to have a good adventure, you just need the freedom to fuck around. The best things about fallout and oblivion to me are the emergent nature of the gameplay. Most importantly it gives you the freedom to make bad decisions which most games are afraid of.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 03:42 PM
So for you the game is like a GTA and is just to play around and everything else (story, characters, combat, etc) is just worthless. For my every sandbox game like this only gives my 5 minutes of fun, until I find something better to play.

I will just say this: Horse armor DLC.

jubeh
09-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Horse armor looks rad

Fenn
09-09-2011, 03:55 PM
Reminder: a game's objective "goodness" or "badness" is based on the number and ratio of people who enjoyed it to those who didn't.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 04:05 PM
Reminder: a game's objective "goodness" or "badness" is based on the number and ratio of people who enjoyed it to those who didn't.

So COD MW is a awesome game, and Inception an awesome movie.

Wrong statement is wrong.

CypressDahlia
09-09-2011, 04:51 PM
Oblivion is a good "pick your own Adventure" book but not a good game. let's just leave it at that. I think we had a thread about this already, and even those who liked Oblivion agreed that the core gameplay: combat, inventory management, etc. were crap.

Gedeon
09-09-2011, 04:54 PM
._. i liked it trough and trough.................

Ozzaharwood
09-09-2011, 05:32 PM
Okay, we all agree Oblivion is average. It has bad gameplay, but it was fun. (For most people at least)

I think we can all also agree that Skyrim is going to be amazing.

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 05:39 PM
I think we can all also agree that Skyrim is going to be amazing.

Have you played? Do you know something about the story?

For many people Skyrim is like a volcano of fantasies just because the first trailer had epic music, but to be honest I haven't seen any feature that would make me say "wow, this can be a great game". Even more, I'm way more exited by Kingdom of Amalur: Reckoning than by Skyrim (I have seen more gameplay about kingdom of amalur than about skyrim, and kingdom of amalur still have like a year to be released).

I can give you that it has dragons and it looks pretty sweet, but still I haven't seen that much to say "wow, this game is gonna be awesome" and I'm kinda tired with the marketing of skyrim and the final fantasy XIII-2 or Street Fighter vs Tekken, it's like they don't care about the game, just to make every trailer look cool and cinematic.

I hope skyrim become a awesome game.

CypressDahlia
09-09-2011, 05:42 PM
I think Skyrim might be able to change my mind about elder scrolls. But we'll have to wait and see.

I heard Al Shaddai was a fucking badass game, and the art style makes me hot. Though, I personally have not played.

Ozzaharwood
09-09-2011, 05:49 PM
Have you played? Do you know something about the story?

For many people Skyrim is like a volcano of fantasies just because the first trailer had epic music, but to be honest I haven't seen any feature that would make me say "wow, this can be a great game". Even more, I'm way more exited by Kingdom of Amalur: Reckoning than by Skyrim (I have seen more gameplay about kingdom of amalur than about skyrim, and kingdom of amalur still have like a year to be released).

I can give you that it has dragons and it looks pretty sweet, but still I haven't seen that much to say "wow, this game is gonna be awesome" and I'm kinda tired with the marketing of skyrim and the final fantasy XIII-2 or Street Fighter vs Tekken, it's like they don't care about the game, just to make every trailer look cool and cinematic.

I hope skyrim become a awesome game.

I do too, and I know what you mean. People hype up a game just from the trailer a lot of the time. Unlike them though, I've watched a few interviews with Todd Howard and he's said that they are fixing up almost everything they did wrong in Oblivion. You can't trust him completely, but he's shown gameplay with an improved 3rd person mode—allowing a player to be able to play primarily in 3rd person,—improved accessibility and new capabilities for the inventory, a perk system when leveling up, (Much like Fallout) and an even greater graphics engine which also allows for a bigger map. It's looking great, but we won't know for sure if it is until it comes out.

Fenn
09-09-2011, 07:13 PM
So COD MW is a awesome game, and Inception an awesome movie.

Wrong statement is wrong.

Those statements are absolutely true, whether you disagree with them or not. It's your word v.s. 2 ga-jillion or however many gamers bought and enjoyed MW. They ALL thought it was fun. What, you're a more "sophisticated" gamer so your opinion counts more? (If I'm skewing your words please correct me)

Saying a game is objectively "good" is completely different from saying a game is poorly made, or low quality, or a cash-in. The latter comments can be backed with facts and justified observations. The first can't until you give it a definition.

good/Adjective: To be desired or approved of. (Dictionary.com)

Several million people desired COD MW. Hence, it is a good game by objective standards. That doesn't mean you can't hate it, loathe it, or feel whatever way you want towards it. It oes mean you can't inflate your opinion to be more valid than the opinions of millions.

Gedeon
09-09-2011, 07:17 PM
^the thing i think is the best is that they said that there will be much more interactivity with the enemies and NPC. The one thing i sincerely i didn't like in oblivion is the fights. The whole idea of block and atack didn't bother me but the fact that you don't even touch your opponents when you "hit" them made me so frustrated but now they have upped the animations and the possibilities so yeah here is crossing fingers for it to be an epic game. Also since io forgot to tell it one of the games that shocked me was Batman Arkham asylum....never have thought that i could like sneaking and avoiding head on battles so much.

GunZet
09-09-2011, 08:19 PM
So COD MW is a awesome game, and Inception an awesome movie.

Wrong statement is wrong.

Damn bro, is there anything you don't hate?

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 08:22 PM
Those statements are absolutely true, whether you disagree with them or not. It's your word v.s. 2 ga-jillion or however many gamers bought and enjoyed MW. They ALL thought it was fun. What, you're a more "sophisticated" gamer so your opinion counts more? (If I'm skewing your words please correct me)

If 2 ga-jillion of people tell you that shit taste wonderful, would you eat that? If those people tell you that Twilight is the best movie ever, would you watch it? if those people tell you that Hitler was the best person in the world and should be praised, would you praise him?

Most of the people though the world was flat, until was proved the contrary.

Quantity =/= Quality.
Quantity =/= True.


Saying a game is objectively "good" is completely different from saying a game is poorly made, or low quality, or a cash-in. The latter comments can be backed with facts and justified observations. The first can't until you give it a definition.

I never said it was objectively good or bad, I said it's inter-subjectively good or bad, which I also gave arguments why did I say that.


Several million people desired COD MW. Hence, it is a good game by objective standards. That doesn't mean you can't hate it, loathe it, or feel whatever way you want towards it. It oes mean you can't inflate your opinion to be more valid than the opinions of millions.

Again, Quantity doesn't equal quality, or neither is a statement of it. "Everyone believes that the earth is the center of the universe" another statement that prove that not because everyone believe in something or like something, would make it good or true.



Damn bro, is there anything you don't hate?

Plenty of things, starting with food (peruvian, indu, mexican, italian, chinesse, etc), to movies and video games (like deus ex, red dead redemption, etc).

GunZet
09-09-2011, 08:34 PM
See I get what you're talking about. There are lots of games out there with little exposure and no hype that could rival these big commercial beasts. So I agree it isn't the quantity. Black Ops wasn't nowhere near what I thought it would be, doesn't even come close to MW2, not even graphic-wise. But while you're so busy trying to change other people's opinions, why don't you stop and think about all of those cool games that you like? If you like it, cool beans, no prob. But trying so hard to prove to others why a game that is obviously pretty cool is bad is just a waste of your time if you're not getting paid. It's not like we're talking about [name horrible game here].

ClockHand
09-09-2011, 09:02 PM
I love Diablo II, I find it so enjoyable to be able to play as a same character over and over again, but doing different builds.

Gedeon
09-09-2011, 09:08 PM
......o.o.......well that was easy..........

jubeh
09-10-2011, 12:10 AM
I heard Al Shaddai was a fucking badass game, and the art style makes me hot. Though, I personally have not played.

Its rad though Iduno if you'd like it


Those statements are absolutely true, whether you disagree with them or not. It's your word v.s. 2 ga-jillion or however many gamers bought and enjoyed MW. They ALL thought it was fun.

Pffff hahahaha. I bet you listen to nickelback fenn.

ClockHand
09-10-2011, 01:38 AM
http://us.blizzard.com/_images/games/d2/wallpapers/wall2/wall2-1600x1200.jpg

Diablo II
I still remember when I was younger; my computer was in a tiny dark room where I use to enclose and cover any light just to play Diablo II. I put the audio the highest I could, I cover any light and I just play it for hours and hours, time blew in that moment and when I was done playing, the whole world look different (for those many hours at playing). I love it, the sound track is extremely immerse, the variety is awesome, the bosses were cool and I just love the whole art on this world.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q92qUOcKYMk/SEgnQ8UxX8I/AAAAAAAAAXM/kuRaToZ1gK4/s320/Brave_Fencer_Musashi.jpg

One of my favorite games for Playstation, I remember that me and my friends use to talk 60% of the time about this game. It was awesome, the story was cool, the powers were cool, the enemies were awesome, and I always felt that I wanted to fight every boss again and again.


http://misfondos.com.es/images/wallpapers/vagrant-story-198873.jpeg

I loved the whole art, it was awesome, and the story is something I will always going to remember (with the combat mechanic and the item mechanic), this game was pure gold for me when I was younger.

Fenn
09-10-2011, 11:11 AM
If 2 ga-jillion of people tell you that shit taste wonderful, would you eat that? If those people tell you that Twilight is the best movie ever, would you watch it? if those people tell you that Hitler was the best person in the world and should be praised, would you praise him?

Most of the people though the world was flat, until was proved the contrary.

Quantity =/= Quality.
Quantity =/= True.

If 2 ga-jillion people say any of those things, and a proportionately fewer number say otherwise, the consensus is that those statements are true. This has nothing to do with your subjective opinion.

And the world being round is a fact, a stone-cold fact. It's true whether 5 billion say it is or 0 people say it is. That can't change that the world is round. Wheras judgments like "Oblivion sucks" or "Twilight is awesome" are subjective statements.


I never said it was objectively good or bad, I said it's inter-subjectively good or bad, which I also gave arguments why did I say that.

Oh. This would have saved us about a page-worth of argument... :D


Again, Quantity doesn't equal quality, or neither is a statement of it. "Everyone believes that the earth is the center of the universe" another statement that prove that not because everyone believe in something or like something, would make it good or true.

I already explained this above. Fact =/= Opinion.



So the moral of the story is: make sure I clarify what Clock is arguing before I argue with him. Tbh it seemed like you and jubeh were fluctuating between the subjective and objective goodness of the game. I wasn't sure.

Handy333
09-10-2011, 11:38 PM
LIMBO'S ENDING...

CRYING IF FOR BABIES.

Hamachi
09-11-2011, 12:45 AM
Just thought I'd leave these Sims mod videos here since Baron likes FF7 so much...

Sephiroth dancing in the bathroom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmFbdJejtW0

Cloud and Sephiroth fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btzSDALgnTc

Sephiroth's childhood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwyFHSrXEOw

Sephiroth teaches Cloud the pirate song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTeFflSmelQ

GunZet
09-11-2011, 04:04 AM
I'm also a turbo FF7 fan. Oh, and I just played the Limbo demo off Steam....my goodness, I haven't actually 'felt' anything from a platformer before. But this game made me go 'wtf ohshit!' The atmosphere is just perfect.

Fenn
09-11-2011, 12:31 PM
Pffff hahahaha. I bet you listen to nickelback fenn.

Coming from the guy in the nerd thread telling everyone to stop being elitists.

And actually I do. I have about 5 of their songs on my Ipod.

jubeh
09-11-2011, 01:00 PM
Called it

Fenn
09-11-2011, 03:04 PM
Called it

Implying that's a bad thing.

Hayashida
09-11-2011, 05:40 PM
There is no emoticon to accurately describe my facial expression right now

Evil_Cake
09-11-2011, 05:58 PM
:ascii_chibi:

Hayashida
09-11-2011, 06:25 PM
Close but not quite.

Bacon_Barbarian
09-11-2011, 09:44 PM
D&D. My imagimination (spelt wrong on purpose) has been harnessed.

Superdooperphailmachine
09-11-2011, 11:02 PM
D&D has taken around 90% of my free time over the past 2-3 years.

ClockHand
09-11-2011, 11:30 PM
If 2 ga-jillion people say any of those things, and a proportionately fewer number say otherwise, the consensus is that those statements are true. This has nothing to do with your subjective opinion.

What subjective opinion? If the consensus says that Twilight is the best book ever wrote, then they are right? fuck no! that's why when we develop judgments of something "good" vs "bad" is done over justifications and arguments, that in the case of video games, movies, books and others, have already points that delimit something good vs something bad.


And the world being round is a fact, a stone-cold fact. It's true whether 5 billion say it is or 0 people say it is. That can't change that the world is round. Wheras judgments like "Oblivion sucks" or "Twilight is awesome" are subjective statements.

I agree, those are subjective statements, but there is a difference between a subjective statement with an justified opinion. See again the points I gave about why Oblivion sucks.


I already explained this above. Fact =/= Opinion.

Argument = Justification = Opinion with relevance.
Again, you didn't read my points in why Oblivion suck, and if you want to keep fighting this, gave me a reason in why oblivion doesn't suck. You are discussing about "opinion with arguments =/= fact", while I have never said my opinion is a fact, I just said that oblivion was a bad game and gave my reasons to it, unless you gave me your reason's why Oblivion is not bad, then you are just digging a hole for yourself.


So the moral of the story is: make sure I clarify what Clock is arguing before I argue with him. Tbh it seemed like you and jubeh were fluctuating between the subjective and objective goodness of the game. I wasn't sure.

Moral of the story: read the beginning of the discussion, not the end.

wolfman
09-12-2011, 06:53 AM
I still constantly play morrowind and oblivion, even daggerfall if I'm really bored and still consider them amazing games, i spent sooooo much time as a kid on morrowind, i don't see why people don't like the first person fighting or why people use the third person for anything but to look at their character

Rio
09-12-2011, 11:36 AM
And now for something completely different...


Man you knew it was coming if you played the previous phantasy stars. Always gotta kill of somebody cool and always gotta trick you into thinking you know how the final boss will be.That's the funny thing - I started with IV and worked my way backwards in the series. :C

Those bastards! :shakes fist:

Fenn
09-12-2011, 12:40 PM
What subjective opinion? If the consensus says that Twilight is the best book ever wrote, then they are right? fuck no! that's why when we develop judgments of something "good" vs "bad" is done over justifications and arguments, that in the case of video games, movies, books and others, have already points that delimit something good vs something bad.

You can only argue for something when you define what you're arguing. For all I know "best" could mean most pages, or most sales, or the best cumulative reviews from major websites.

You're saying
If the consensus says that Twilight is the best book ever wrote, then they are right? fuck no! Without even suggestion what "best" implies.

Wheras I provided a possible DEFINITION of what good could mean: "desirable." And since there is clearly a large population of fans who find Twilight desirable, Twilight must be a good series. It makes no difference whether it's cliche, cheesy, unsophisticated, or any other possible "justification" you can give for it being bad because that isn't how "good" was being defined.


I agree, those are subjective statements, but there is a difference between a subjective statement with an justified opinion. See again the points I gave about why Oblivion sucks.

If you want to define what traits define a game that "sucks" AND AFTERWARDS apply that, to Oblivion, then you're argument will hold it's ground. Which you did. And did quite well. But I thought you were trying to apply this to the objective value of Oblivion. If I read your post, it seems a game that "sucks"...okay now I can't find your points what post # are they on?


Argument = Justification = Opinion with relevance.
Again, you didn't read my points in why Oblivion suck, and if you want to keep fighting this, gave me a reason in why oblivion doesn't suck. You are discussing about "opinion with arguments =/= fact", while I have never said my opinion is a fact, I just said that oblivion was a bad game and gave my reasons to it, unless you gave me your reason's why Oblivion is not bad, then you are just digging a hole for yourself.

I never argued Oblivon doesn't suck. I argued if it truly sucked outside of your personal opinion then the majority of people who played it wouldn't have enjoyed it. I don't exactly have stats to say whether most people liked or disliked it though; I haven't read that many reviews on it though

I judge games based on how well they fulfilled their end purpose: enjoyment. I subjectively find good games to be ones I enjoyed, and bad ones to be games I didn't. I objectively define good games as games that most people enjoyed playing, and bad games as those most people did not enjoy playing.

Therefore:
- A game with high sales/high enjoyment = good (Call of Duty--don't argue most people don't enjoy it, because if they didn't the sequels wouldn't have sold)
- A game with low sales/high enjoyment = good (Beyond Good and Evil)
- A game with high sales/low enjoyment = bad (not very common, any examples?)
- A game with low sales/low enjoyment = bad (Wii Music--lol)

I can't see how you can classify the objective value of a game any differently than that.


Moral of the story: read the beginning of the discussion, not the end.

I read the whole discussion. :cat_hmp: I think think the whole conflict of the argument started because you were arguing your subjective experience and judgment while Jubeh was defending the game's objective value. Thus, you were agruing two completely separate views.

CypressDahlia
09-12-2011, 01:09 PM
But that logic, Fenn, you are suggesting that people never enjoy bad things. Soulja Boy, by all standards of lyricism, was the shittiest thing to ever exist, but a lot of people enjoyed his songs. In other words, what people like does not always reflect the highest standard of the respective medium. If anything, it reflects high accessibility and popularity (CoD). That's about it.

I guess a more relevant example of this would be the fighting game scene. This is referencing a brotalk I had w/ Jubeh when MvC3 came out. People like unbalanced fighting games. They prefer large tier discrepancies and overpowered characters, possibly for the variety, possibly because they're tier-whores and possibly for the high stakes. Objectively speaking, a game should offer more than one reliable method of success (jetpacking in Reach, camping in CoD, tier-whoring in whatever fighter). Sirlin (fighting game vet) is pretty much the best example of what I'm talking about. When it came to playing, he advocated "playing to win", which meant using the "cheapest" tactics and giving yourself the biggest possible hard advantages like OP characters. When it came time for him to DESIGN a game (Turbo HD Remix), he decided to make it as balanced as possible. Does that mean he didn't enjoy playing unbalanced games? No. He did, despite the fact that it went against his standard for what a fighting game should be. It's just that, when it came down to deciding what was BEST for HD Turbo Remix by the standards of the medium, he decided it should be very balanced.

So yeah.

Fenn
09-12-2011, 04:53 PM
But that logic, Fenn, you are suggesting that people never enjoy bad things.

Not at all, I never implied something that black and white. I said that with good games, the number of people who enjoy the music outnumber the number of people who do not by a significant ratio, and vise-versa with bad game. The total number of people who like-dislike a game is not as important as the ratio between them.


Soulja Boy, by all standards of lyricism, was the shittiest thing to ever exist, but a lot of people enjoyed his songs. In other words, what people like does not always reflect the highest standard of the respective medium. If anything, it reflects high accessibility and popularity (CoD). That's about it.

Your second sentence is crucial. You said people's likes and the highest standards of the industry are not always the same. So now the question becomes one of perspective. If Clock is arguing the quality of Oblivion with relation to industry standards, which I suspect he is, then he's made a great, justified argument.

By that same reasoning, though, I see little reason to value the industry standard over the enjoyment of the consumer(s) when arguing a game's objective value. If the two aren't one in the same, I'd rather argue that a game is good based on people's enjoyment than on the notion of a "standard" which, in truth, is less clear cut than the word suggests since you don't make games with the ultimate goal of reaching the highest industry standard, but with the goal of creating a game to...

...well, the honest answer is profit. But with respect to the gamer, as opposed to the developer, games are meant to provide enjoyment in a number of ways. That is their purpose, their goal. This entertainment is not entirely dependant on the game's value relative to industry standards, as your Souldja Boy example proves.

(Sidenote: enjoyment does not just prove accessibility and popularity. Quite to the contrary, most people who played Beyond Good and Evil enjoyed it, so by the enjoyment standards I've set it is a good game. Yet it's hardly considered mainstream or popular.)



I guess a more relevant example of this would be the fighting game scene. This is referencing a brotalk I had w/ Jubeh when MvC3 came out. People like unbalanced fighting games. They prefer large tier discrepancies and overpowered characters, possibly for the variety, possibly because they're tier-whores and possibly for the high stakes. Objectively speaking, a game should offer more than one reliable method of success (jetpacking in Reach, camping in CoD, tier-whoring in whatever fighter). Sirlin (fighting game vet) is pretty much the best example of what I'm talking about. When it came to playing, he advocated "playing to win", which meant using the "cheapest" tactics and giving yourself the biggest possible hard advantages like OP characters. When it came time for him to DESIGN a game (Turbo HD Remix), he decided to make it as balanced as possible. Does that mean he didn't enjoy playing unbalanced games? No. He did, despite the fact that it went against his standard for what a fighting game should be. It's just that, when it came down to deciding what was BEST for HD Turbo Remix by the standards of the medium, he decided it should be very balanced.

So yeah.

I think I answered this above, but due to a major need to procrastinate further I'll reiterate. Judging games based on the standards of the medium, as you eloquently put it, is a perfectly valid way to evaluate a game. However, I don't feel it is the best way to evaluate the objective value of a game because it does not adequately reflect the purpose of a game: to provide entertainment.

Entertainment is the ultimate goal of a video game for the gamer. Thus enjoyment is the most accurate way to reflect the objective value and/or success of a game.

Bacon_Barbarian
09-12-2011, 05:10 PM
D&D has taken around 90% of my free time over the past 2-3 years.
Good man.

Oh, Pokemon has also actually impacted my life. I had a lot of trouble reading when iI as little, and then I learned how so I could play Crystal. :D

CypressDahlia
09-12-2011, 05:43 PM
Fenn, a game has to have a good balance between providing entertainment and meeting the standard for the medium. CoD is good in the sense that people enjoy it. I do not deny that people enjoy it. But because people enjoy it does not make it a good game, just an enjoyable one. That is the distinction I am trying to make. You are talking about success, we are talking about core gaming principles.

Fenn
09-12-2011, 05:53 PM
Fenn, a game has to have a good balance between providing entertainment and meeting the standard for the medium. CoD is good in the sense that people enjoy it. I do not deny that people enjoy it. But because people enjoy it does not make it a good game, just an enjoyable one. That is the distinction I am trying to make. You are talking about success, we are talking about core gaming principles.

...


I do not deny that people enjoy it. But because people enjoy it does not make it a good game, just an enjoyable one.

:cat_teardrop:

Okay, before I go any farther, define what you mean by good. What do you mean by good? I gave you my definition: desireable. And the best way to know if a game is desirable is if people enjoy the game. So what is your definition of an objectively "good" game? What is "good"?

Also, objective here doesn't mean factual, but relating to everyone, as opposed to a spefici individual, a.k.a subjective.

CypressDahlia
09-12-2011, 06:10 PM
"Good" means it satisfies all the conventions of the genre, is well balanced, offers satisfying gameplay, tight controls, is graphically and audibly appealing and is fun. No matter how much people "like" it, whether or not a game meets these standards if entirely of the game. Even if nobody played a game if it met these standards it would be good. Not successful, but good. Likewise, even if people "liked" a game, if it's entirely unbalanced, slapdash in its genre placement, offers bad player feedback, has laggy controls, nearly inaudible/muddy audio and graphics that made playing the game a hassle due to vision limitations and such, it would be bad. I don't think anyone would LIKE a game like that, but just giving examples of how a game can suffer in each of those categories on a standardized level.

And if games were built around desirability, it would spell the end of gaming forever. Rarely do gamers desire anything outside of the realm of "what needs to be changed to improve my chances of winning? What will help me, as an individual or niche player, succeed and what is impeding my success?" In other words, CoD would degenerate into MW2's multiplayer. Which is why I brought up the example of Sirlin. He "desired" unbalanced gameplay when it was to his advantage but, when it came down to designing a --good-- game, he upheld the conventions of the genre and chose to balance it as well as possible. That is what I'm talking about: the distinction between success/accessibility/desirability, whatever you wanna call it, and just being GOOD.

Lucy
09-12-2011, 06:44 PM
The game which affected me most, I think, is Nethack. Never used to do anything risky ever, not in games and not in real life. That game pushed me out of the box a bit with its hang-around-and-a-gnome-will-zap-a-wand-of-death, you-are-never-safe mentality. That game taught me to be a go-get-'em pragmatist.

My hyphen key feels like it's recieved an unnecessary amount of lovin' now.

Hamachi
09-12-2011, 06:52 PM
That game basically taught me to copy my saves to another folder and copy them back when I died. Muahuahahaha!

Also, it taught me to eat corpses.

Fenn
09-12-2011, 07:35 PM
"Good" means it satisfies all the conventions of the genre, is well balanced, offers satisfying gameplay, tight controls, is graphically and audibly appealing and is fun. No matter how much people "like" it, whether or not a game meets these standards if entirely of the game. Even if nobody played a game if it met these standards it would be good. Not successful, but good. Likewise, even if people "liked" a game, if it's entirely unbalanced, slapdash in its genre placement, offers bad player feedback, has laggy controls, nearly inaudible/muddy audio and graphics that made playing the game a hassle due to vision limitations and such, it would be bad. I don't think anyone would LIKE a game like that, but just giving examples of how a game can suffer in each of those categories on a standardized level.

And if games were built around desirability, it would spell the end of gaming forever. Rarely do gamers desire anything outside of the realm of "what needs to be changed to improve my chances of winning? What will help me, as an individual or niche player, succeed and what is impeding my success?" In other words, CoD would degenerate into MW2's multiplayer. Which is why I brought up the example of Sirlin. He "desired" unbalanced gameplay when it was to his advantage but, when it came down to designing a --good-- game, he upheld the conventions of the genre and chose to balance it as well as possible. That is what I'm talking about: the distinction between success/accessibility/desirability, whatever you wanna call it, and just being GOOD.

All right, good. Now I ask another question: does this definition you have created serve the role of determining the objective value of a game? Because it seems subjective to me. That may be because it is true, or it may be because I am misinterpreting you.

I also want to clarify my use of desirability. I did not mean that a good game had qualities desired by gamers, although I can see how you would interpret it that way. I suggested that the final product, the game itself, was an object of desirability to many people. There is a subtle difference between the two.

CypressDahlia
09-12-2011, 08:10 PM
Yes, they are objective standards. All except for 'fun', which accounts for enjoyability which IS part of game design, but definitely not the entire thing. Genre standards are very much objective. It's essentially a checklist: "does this game meet all of the precedents of the genre after which it was designed?" Balance is also extremely objective. Balance in fighting games is whittling down hitboxes, frames of animation and properties of attacks. Balance in, say, an FPS is adding or subtracting recoil from a gun, increasing/decreasing rates of fire and ammo capacities to ensure no one weapon is overpowered, or re-sculpting maps to make sure no one tactic is supreme. Player feedback is how the game rewards/punishes players based on their actions. This is basically how the game compels you to play more, play more aggressively, play more passively, etc, etc. Controls, audio and graphics don't have to work, sound or look a certain way, but none of them should interfere with the gamer playing the game in the way it was intended. If it does, then they are objectively bad. It would be like, say, playing DDR with muffled audio, playing Halo with extreme fog that made it impossible to see or playing Devil May Cry with lazy/delayed controls.

Fenn
09-12-2011, 10:29 PM
Guess what? Clock just touched on the same topic, but related to music. I think tomorrow I'll make a thread addressing the concept of "good" and "bad" in media, and we can all have it out.

CypressDahlia
09-13-2011, 12:27 PM
It's different from music, though, as when developers design a game they have a very clear intent on how it should play. If elements of the game impede the player from matching this ideal mode of play, those are bad elements. Whereas music does not need to sound like anything in particular, or be heard in any specific way. Also, unlike music, games have communal aspects and a far greater level of interactivity. Music does not need to give feedback to its players whereas a game consistently does.

Though there are objective standards for music, these standards do not necessarily need to be followed. Not following them does not make a song any less listenable. Whereas not meeting objective standards in games can make them unplayable.

Regantor
09-15-2011, 09:59 PM
Eleven pages of "life impacting games" and nothing about Silent Hill 2?... SON, I AM DISSAPOINT D:<

Just calling it a horror is unfair; This game has such a strong story that it emotionally torments you. The graphics are absolutely perfect at giving off that "mundane as real life" feel, whilst at the same time you come up against super-originally-grotesque enemies that move anything but predictably. You suck at fighting, yeah, but that's okay; You do suck at fighting.

Haven't even got onto the voice acting and the intentionally hilarious hidden endings yet. Or Mr.Pyramid Head back before he sold out and became zombie chuck norris. Or the music. Or the weird hidden quotes. I'm hard pressed to come up anything on any media that is as immerse, endearing, terrifying.

Play it already. *^*

jubeh
09-15-2011, 10:05 PM
http://www.thunderboltgames.com/s/img600/killer7.jpg
http://local-static3.forum-files.fobby.net/forum_attachments/0012/2873/starman.pnghttp://images.wikia.com/metalgear/images/9/99/Ocelot_(Twin_Snakes).jpeghttp://www.my-minecraft-skins.com/wp-content/uploads/previews/ronald-mcdonald-minecraft-skin-preview.png

Regantor
09-15-2011, 10:51 PM
"This is tooo easy..."

Metal Gear is a weird one. I guess it all comes down to if you liked the giant ladder from MGS3 or not. Bullshit, yes, but original meta-gameplay bullshit. Where else can you embarrass your navigator by taking pictures of gay porn, or kill a boss by not playing the game for a few days?

I wonder how many people who complain about Kojima's navel gazing were just slugging through the Let's Plays...

jubeh
09-15-2011, 11:03 PM
2 was my favorite metal gear solid specifically I just really like ocelot. MGS2 blew my little teenage mind when I played it.

Evil_Cake
09-15-2011, 11:13 PM
those games r the only reason i want a playstation 2 or 3

CypressDahlia
09-15-2011, 11:15 PM
3 was my favorite for the greater emphasis on sneaking.

jubeh
09-15-2011, 11:17 PM
3 was great too, it just wasn't as surreal as the second one was. I loved all the ridiculous twists in 3.

I'm defecting to the soviet union.

CypressDahlia
09-16-2011, 01:59 AM
I see what's up. I see...

Outcast
09-17-2011, 11:00 PM
2 was my favorite metal gear solid specifically I just really like ocelot. MGS2 blew my little teenage mind when I played it.

I played it when I was 8.

Little kids tend to skip cut scenes...

Fenn
09-18-2011, 01:54 AM
I played it when I was 8.

Little kids tend to skip cut scenes...

Wait you skipped cutscenes in MGS? Isn't that like 2/3 of the game?

Outcast
09-18-2011, 05:18 AM
Yeah

Hell_Baron
09-18-2011, 12:25 PM
is that even possible?

Fenn
09-18-2011, 12:28 PM
Super Smash Bros was a pretty influential game for me. It showed me just how much fun options are. The number of modes, characters, stages, and settings just left infinity variety.