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Delphinus
08-09-2011, 09:28 AM
In the past few years, Europe has been bursting into riots in response to the increasing class divide and the downturn in economies. In the last few days there's been rioting in the major cities of the UK.

Speculation and opinions on these events go here. Personally I agree with the Spanish newspaper El Pais:


The economic crisis cannot become the sole explanation for the violent outbreaks that are multiplying in Europe. Each case is different, but taken together they are bolstering the view that representative democracy is incapable of dealing peacefully with the growing unrest among citizens. It is a slippery slope that governments have to deal with, while scrupulously obeying the rule of law.

I posted something last night about it, as well. This is just my opinion, mind you.


Public unhappiness amongst working class, caused by economic downturn.
Economic downturn, caused by deficit spending and subprime lending.
Deficit spending and subprime lending, caused by need of government to remain popular through popular policies and derestriction of banks.
Need of government to remain popular caused by the democratic system.
Democratic system caused by human need to feel power, even if that power is only illusory.

Human nature, but in terms of what's changeable, the economic repercussions of democracy. :)

Regantor
08-09-2011, 10:08 AM
Really pissed off about the kind of representation young people are getting through this. It just goes to show that Britain is really a plutocracy rather than a democracy, and that the class system is still very much alive and well. Sorry if this clashes with your ideas, Del, but although I have a pretty dim view of capitalism, I can hardly say this is a fault on the part of democracy itself...

Through the looters are made up entirely of criminal opportunists and young neanderthals trying to be hip, but the resentment really does lead back to the coalition government. Both parties have used their two-party deal as a means to completely ignore whatever promises they made before the election. To exacerbate things, pretty much the only solution they have come up with since the riots began is "Use rubber bullets."

How are people supposed to communicate or empathize with logic like that? Nobody on top is interested in fixing the reasons behind the resentment at all.

Too any body who got their businesses smashed up by these idiots, you really have my sympathies. But 'locking up all the evil people' is hardly going to solve things. They did not become brainless on their own.

Delphinus
08-09-2011, 10:27 AM
Yes. The government has sown the seeds of its own destruction and now it's going to reap the whirlwind. This is entirely the fault of the New Labour government and of the new(ish) coalition.

I hope they can stop the riots, but if they don't address the problems then this is just going to get worse and happen again and again until someone finally tries to attack the causes rather than the symptoms. At least this has the government scared, even if it's not directly a protest against them. In regards to blaming the rioters; it's a right-wing authoritarian government, of course they're going to pretend that everything is the fault of the protesters.

So long as nobody I know gets hurt, I'm ambivalent to these riots. On the one hand, it's an awful thing to have innocent people be hurt or have their property damaged, but on the other it ought to stimulate argument about questions that have remained unanswered by the ruling class for far too long.


I can hardly say this is a fault on the part of democracy itself...

Not to get too off-topic (or is it on-topic?) but democracy shows itself time and time again to be wasteful, populist, and favouring short-term goals over long-term ones. It also has a tendency to be unstable. Athens' democracy collapsed; so did Rome's senate. Democracy has historically only lasted 500 years at most.

Renzokuken
08-09-2011, 10:46 AM
PHOTOS INCOMING

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/281308_197516416976561_100001546116381_553637_5497 873_n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/251495_197516506976552_100001546116381_553639_2109 220_n.jpg

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/184068_197516646976538_100001546116381_553642_4236 150_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/262470_197516940309842_100001546116381_553652_5373 708_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/281615_197517393643130_100001546116381_553660_3583 929_n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/285462_197517510309785_100001546116381_553662_3789 504_n.jpg


Some pictures I took in town (Birmingham) a little while ago. I hear they're about to start again soon.

BozeSG
08-10-2011, 07:32 AM
WTF IS THIS SHIT I DON'T EVEN. PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY ARE GETTING KILLED, ARRESTED AND TORTURED ONLY BECAUSE THEY WANT THE MOST BASIC RIGHTS YOU TAKE FOR GRANTED AND IN THE MEAN WHILE YOU START RIOTS WITH THE GREATEST CAUSE BEHIND IT BEING EXTRA TVS AND TRAINERS?!?!?! ON TOP OF BEING RIDICULOUS, THIS IS TAKING AWAY FAR MORE THAN IT'S GIVING, LEARN 2 APPRECIATE YOU NOOBS!!!! I'M REALLY PISSED ABOUT THIS!!! FGSDFGDFSGDFGSDTSGFDGHAHFDGFDHGASFGHDASFGHDFSGAHFD HASGFDHASGFDGHASFHDs...

(sorry, i just had to take this off my chest...)

Delphinus
08-10-2011, 07:41 AM
^ The cause isn't extra TVs and trainers.

Massive amounts of young people have no qualifications or prospects in life, and the government is cutting services all over the place, thus worsening the class divide. Hence more young people are angry, and it only took a spark to turn these riots into a raging inferno.

Although it's still not as bad as where you live.

Regantor
08-10-2011, 08:13 AM
Please don't belive the news, Boze.

There is reasoning in this besides random looting. I haven't seen a single camera shot of the actual protests. The goverment just wants to make it look like they are all mindless young criminals in order to make the riots stop without people asking too many questions.

Is our goverment actively malicious and hurting people for basic rights? No. But they are squeezing all of the money out of the poorest groups, and as Del so adequately put it a while back, guilting people into working themselves to death in a climate of peer preasure and backbreaking tax laws.

There are plenty of people out there who have been going out and repairing their comunities over day as volenteer work. Like I said, please don't let the news fool you into making us all look like moronic sheep who need to be lead 'for their own good'... If you want "giving results in more than taking", just check out the massive multi-million pound bonuses the bankers gave themselves despite screwing up almost every economy on the planet last year...

Delphinus
08-10-2011, 09:36 AM
...guilting people into working themselves to death in a climate of peer preasure and backbreaking tax laws.

This is something I have personal experience with. Everyone seems to expect people (me) to try and find work, as if it doesn't encourage dependence on corporations and lead to a cycle of debt. They are naive; even the majority of so-called liberals buy into this insanity. I would rather do volunteer work than paid labour.


There are plenty of people out there who have been going out and repairing their comunities over day as volenteer work.

I'd be tempted to do so if I lived closer to Croydon or the other affected areas.


...just check out the massive multi-million pound bonuses the bankers gave themselves despite screwing up almost every economy on the planet last year...

Most people would do the same thing. Don't delude yourself into thinking that the bankers themselves are responsible for all of this; they acted in accordance with the one rule of capitalism: go forth and profit. Most people want more money, and this is the logical result. The problem is the lack of restriction on markets. Ordinarily I'm not for those restrictions; I feel, as many libertarians do, that social freedom can't be obtained without a degree of economic freedom. But the only legitimate function of the state is to protect the public good, and when one group starts taking actions that benefit themselves at the cost of the public, the state needs to clamp down on those actions in law.

Regantor
08-10-2011, 10:09 AM
Isn't the enforcement of such restrictions where such plans fail, through?... With the total lack of transparency on the part of the banks or the government, corruption is just far too easy. Nobody is answerable to anything so long as they have cash. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can only directly blame MPs of the banker's actions if you are either accusing them of corruption or negligence.

I'd like to see something more in line with an elected technocracy myself, but feel that you'd have to completely tear the existing system down for that to take place. It just wouldn't be worth the strife in the current political world climate.

As for employment, it would be different if educated people could actually find decent work. I've got a whole host of engineering qualifications and I've been doing shitty bit-part grocery store jobs since I was sixteen. Airbus has rejected my perfect entry exam results no less than eleven times... So yeah, I have experience too, and I basically agree with this. :/

Slurpee
08-10-2011, 11:58 AM
I live in America and I have extremely dumbed down information. I don't know who to trust about this. BBC is Europe based so they will hide things. I only have French, Russian, and Chinese, News but all of them give propoganda. Where should I look for news about the situation?

Rio
08-10-2011, 12:54 PM
That's the thing. News these days are usually presented in a certain light. You will just have to decide on your own what is fact and what is opinion. Personally, I try to find various news sources and see what they all say about the matter and decide for myself.

Harvester_Of_Sorrow
08-10-2011, 01:18 PM
Also, lets not forget what started this all off, the police shooting and killing a black man in Tottenham, North London. The first story was that Mark Duggan (the man killed) opened fire on a armed police officer where the bullet, like a bad hollywood action movie, hit the police officers radio, saving him. The policeman then returned fire and from his injures Duggan died. New evidence has confirmed that Duggan didn't fire his gun at all, so yet again we have another case where the London Metropolitan police have killed an innocent man, and if the man wasn't innocent then it does raise the question why a lie needed to be told.

I'm not saying the resulting riots are justifiable because of that, almost all the rioters have no affilation with the murdered man, but you can't expect there to be no reaction.

CypressDahlia
08-10-2011, 02:15 PM
It probably just snowballed into other issues. Given how desensitized people are to that kind of thing, I doubt it was little more than an excuse to tack other issues onto the same agenda.

But yeah, I mean...jobs are hard to find, man. Even jobs which don't require qualifications of any sort are hard to find, because you have people with degrees applying for blue collar work since actual employers can't afford to hire them. The McDonalds in my neighborhood receives stacks and stacks of applications from college graduates--people with degrees--who can't find work in their respective fields.

Regantor
08-11-2011, 09:30 AM
It's not on the BBC website or anything, but I just saw a news report of David Cameron saying they should cut off facebook and twitter... Christ, does this guy realise how much he is starting to sound like Stalin?...

A completely berated and unnoted guy who got interveiwed on the street had a better idea. "The three pillars of society are the goverment, police and banks. Each one of them has shown massive incompitence and corruption time after time, but they always get away with it. They have caused billions of pounds worth of damage to the economy. Those rioters? Saving up for trainers. Saving up for a nice coat. Scrounging to survive... Of course they couldn't care less about what society thinks anymore."

Sylux
08-11-2011, 10:23 AM
I dunno if I can relate... No one saves up for a decent wardrobe of pantaloons anymore... 'Specially not guys...

'Cept Lacia.

But yeah, this would be lots more easy in a "middle" society.

CypressDahlia
08-11-2011, 10:51 AM
Still, I can't say this is a great way to get your point across. These riots are gonna get quelled one way or another, and then it turns into a police brutality sob story. We've had too many good arguments that end up as sob stories and swept under the rug because people couldn't find a better way to handle it than riot (like the stories of countless people in third world countries, including my home country). Or at least complement the riot with some action on the political front.

Also all of the wannabe-martyrs and opportunists are destroying the image of those concerned.

Sylux
08-11-2011, 10:56 AM
How can you say that?! Riots are sugoi da!

CypressDahlia
08-11-2011, 11:05 AM
Historically riots are only effective after the police brutally stomp them out. They make the best heart-wrenching sob stories. Basically they work in allowing the government to demonize themselves, despite the rioters being the root of most of the damage and harm. It works, but hardly with the immediacy that a riot demands.

Actually, I can see this happening already. Everyone's crying about the rubber bullets but apparently it's hypocritical to show concern for those whose properties and homes were unnecessarily and unfairly accosted by the riots.

Sylux
08-11-2011, 11:07 AM
Uh, no, I just meant that they're a change of pace. You know, something less boring than congress. Nothing that deep.

CypressDahlia
08-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Riots only happen for our entertainment.

Sylux
08-11-2011, 12:00 PM
Yowch! Mockery~

Regantor
08-11-2011, 12:40 PM
Still, I can't say this is a great way to get your point across. These riots are gonna get quelled one way or another, and then it turns into a police brutality sob story. We've had too many good arguments that end up as sob stories and swept under the rug because people couldn't find a better way to handle it than riot (like the stories of countless people in third world countries, including my home country). Or at least complement the riot with some action on the political front.

Also all of the wannabe-martyrs and opportunists are destroying the image of those concerned.

I have no doubt that it won't change much, myself. Technically speaking, the riots are not politically motivated overall, they are just the result of people sympathising with common criminals more than the rich criminals that call themselves our leaders. You tell somebody that "their element of society is sick" (I'm not even paraphrasing here), treat them like the crud you've scraped off your shoes, and funnily enough, they are going to feel a little distanced from your ideals and opinions.

Do I support the riots in themselves? No. It's a bunch of morons who think that just taking stuff will somehow make them more powerfull or macho.

But it's the goverment which has created the problem through arrogance, negligence and incompitence. I really wish the main heads would just step down, but really the best we can hope for is that the rioters will rattle them up a little and make them realise that they are not immortal. :/

CypressDahlia
08-11-2011, 01:00 PM
Lack of a proper representative is probably the biggest issue. They need a diplomat.

Sylux
08-11-2011, 01:28 PM
I'll do it. I'll represent these desperate people.

CypressDahlia
08-11-2011, 09:02 PM
A friend from the UK just informed me that the riots have calmed down a bit, subsequent to 4 people being killed. Any more info on this?

Delphinus
08-11-2011, 09:10 PM
Yes. There were no riots last night, and thus far there's been none tonight.

Sylux
08-11-2011, 09:18 PM
I like riots that go on until you're sick of them (i.e. you're not left wanting for more).

Delphinus
08-11-2011, 09:28 PM
Fuck the government. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14493497)

If this gets through, then I think any more rioting will be justified and I would support it. Total chaos is better than plutocratic authoritarianism.

CypressDahlia
08-11-2011, 09:59 PM
No it isn't.

The best argument I've seen for this not to happen is that it will unfairly affect the innocent, but not to a particularly great degree. But then you consider how much worse the riots have affected the innocent. If doing this, only temporarily, will help protect the physical sanctity of people, their homes and their property, then I'm for it. Nipping the problem in the bud seems like a good game plan to me, especially now that lives are being lost.

Besides, it's fair game. Both sides are playing a little dirty now.

Sylux
08-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Looks sorta like you just changed your mind in a single post...
Unless you don't miss a few keywords.
Those are pretty bad opinions, because you always base it on "Majority Rule" instead of "Might Making Right". But gee, that's just a silly Sylux's opinion!

Delphinus
08-11-2011, 10:53 PM
Sylux, "Might Makes Right" is something I only believe in two different ways, one of them unconventional.

1) Whoever holds power determines what is seen as 'right' and 'wrong' by the masses.
2) Only they who hold power have the capacity to 'make right' - to change the world for the better. (This was the basis of medieval codes of chivalry. You know, the ones behind the modern idea of paladins...) I value empathy in an odd way; I feel it's the duty of the strong to protect the weak.

I probably don't believe it in the sense you do, which is "Might justifies any action." I used to; now I don't.

JamBrandon531
08-11-2011, 11:53 PM
This is just the typical behavior of my people. This is why I personally believe that the White man is to be worshiped and adored. I understand why people treat me so bad when they see me in the street. I deserve it because I am a member of a genetically inferior race and I'm out.

Sylux
08-12-2011, 12:06 AM
Uh... Wow, dude, that's really loaded...and totally impossible, really. How can you say any ethnicity is better or worse? You kinda shouldn't ever say things like that, I mean you never know who you'll piss off, plus it isn't true.

CypressDahlia
08-12-2011, 01:17 AM
I'm confused now. Was that last post directed at me? The "Might makes right" thing. Personally, I don't see it applying to my post but just to make sure I have nothing to clarify.

Kodos
08-12-2011, 02:56 AM
This is just the typical behavior of my people. This is why I personally believe that the White man is to be worshiped and adored. I understand why people treat me so bad when they see me in the street. I deserve it because I am a member of a genetically inferior race and I'm out.
V-Violent AJ is-is that you? HAVE YOU COME BACK TO US?!

Arashi500
08-12-2011, 10:03 AM
This is just the typical behavior of my people. This is why I personally believe that the White man is to be worshiped and adored. I understand why people treat me so bad when they see me in the street. I deserve it because I am a member of a genetically inferior race and I'm out.

Obvious troll is obvious.

JamBrandon531
08-12-2011, 10:44 AM
I guess I should expect this though. You treat me like a funky piece of shit and wonder why I'm so fucked up and why I have low self esteem and I'm an insecure bastard. I'm leaving this forum then.

ClockHand
08-12-2011, 11:52 AM
I guess I should expect this though. You treat me like a funky piece of shit and wonder why I'm so fucked up and why I have low self esteem and I'm an insecure bastard. I'm leaving this forum then.

No why haven't treat you as a piece of shit (which is weird because we always do). You have treat yourself as a piece of shit in the first moment you post on MT.

Your first post.

What's up world it's ya boy JamBrandon531 you know. I wanna learn how to draw manga and discuss manga because I'm insecure about myself and don't have anyone else to talk about it with. Everybody in my community say I'm an L7 loser because I like manga, but I'm happy I found this community to talk with people, but I'm out.

Second post.

I want them to make an evangelion you know, because growing up in the neighborhood with women always giving me disrespect, I looked forward to seing Misato. You know, if Misato was real that was a dime piece.
You see how you talk about yourself in a complete irrelevant thread? And every time you talk about you it has to be a emo comment.

Third Post

This is just the typical behavior of my people. This is why I personally believe that the White man is to be worshiped and adored. I understand why people treat me so bad when they see me in the street. I deserve it because I am a member of a genetically inferior race and I'm out.
And finally a racist post. 3 strikes, you are out.

At the end you are just a troll, most of your posts have a intentional lack of confidence and you only talk about your self. So you sir will join to the legacy of ViolentAJ, good luck.



Now to give something to the thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCLq3yqTMaM&playnext=1&list=PL15D3AD92A78C569A
I'm sorry that there are no subtitles for this video. It teach's you of how to solve social problems.

BozeSG
08-12-2011, 12:43 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/aug/11/david-cameron-rioters-social-media
o_O


Although it's still not as bad as where you live.
I live in UK, though i haven't been here for long...

Black_Shaggie
08-30-2011, 04:45 AM
No why haven't treat you as a piece of shit (which is weird because we always do). You have treat yourself as a piece of shit in the first moment you post on MT.

Your first post.


Second post.

You see how you talk about yourself in a complete irrelevant thread? And every time you talk about you it has to be a emo comment.

Third Post

And finally a racist post. 3 strikes, you are out.

At the end you are just a troll, most of your posts have a intentional lack of confidence and you only talk about your self. So you sir will join to the legacy of ViolentAJ, good luck.



I really like everything ClockHand said to this guy.

Now I will also contribute to this thread:

Throughout history, whenever a government attempts to overtly control its people (through any number of means), the people will ultimately revolt.

gov·ern·ment Noun/ˈgəvər(n)mənt/
1. The governing body of a nation, state, or community.
2. The system by which a nation, state, or community is governed.

re·volt/riˈvōlt/Verb: Rise in rebellion.
Noun: An attempt to put an end to the authority of a person or body by rebelling: "the peasants rose in revolt".

This usually happens when new ideas begin to clash with old ones...which ironically used to be new ideas. It also happens when a particular class or cast holds the political authority over others & opresses them in way or another. In today's world, nothing's changed by way of what
governing power or authority: knowledge, money & resources. You keep the people from getting these things it's only natural for them to seek them out in other ways...& in my opinon this usually leads to revolution.

The youth of Europe, America....shit the world have a right to fight for their future & not have it dictated or controlled by the constraints of certain elders who's agenda is clearly to keep the balance of power reserved for their descendants.

I live in America & this kind of revolution...riots...have been going on for years. They are not random isolated incidents. It's the youth trying to tell the rest of the world that the old way isn't working any more & the time for a change in thought is now. I don't think that all the violence is needed, but what other course of action do you have when your opressors refuse to hear you voice at all?

I don't know if this is really relevant...but would any of you...if put in the same situation as the one in europe...just allow the power sthat be to keep you oppressed?

And one more thing: It's impossible for any form of government form becoming corrupt because humans are inherently selfish, petty & greedy. Therefore, whoever's in power will ultimately become corrupted by having all that power.