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jubeh
06-22-2013, 05:16 PM
I made a thread asking your thoughts on suicide, but I want to narrow the subject down a bit.

Do you believe suicide is a selfish act?

Taragon
06-22-2013, 05:24 PM
Depends on the situation, but in many cases I would say yes.

jubeh
06-22-2013, 05:26 PM
Why

Taragon
06-22-2013, 05:31 PM
Mainly because people tend to think only of their own misery and not about hurting the people they're leaving behind. Like I said, it depends on the situation. I just know more stories about people commiting suicide and hurting the ones that loved them, like a father leaving his family behind.

jubeh
06-22-2013, 05:38 PM
Do you believe in most cases somebody that commits suicide really doesn't think about the people they're hurting?

Taragon
06-22-2013, 05:43 PM
I don't know whether they thought about it or not, but apparently they thought it was not important enough to stop them. I'm no expert on the topic, I can only use my own experience and the stories I've heard and how I interpreted them.

jubeh
06-22-2013, 05:47 PM
I understand, but I just find it unbelievable that's a persons family and friends would be absent from a their mind in their final moments. Suicide notes show that a lot of the time young men and women are thinking about very specific people at the end of their lives.

And none of us are experts. I'll entertain any opinion, as long as its not morally outrageous.

Taragon
06-22-2013, 06:20 PM
Well I don't think I really have a definitive judgement on it, I used to have, but that's changed over time. It is a fascinating subject though, especially with the differing cultural views towards it.

Kodos
06-22-2013, 06:48 PM
I think asking someone not to commit suicide because 'it's selfish' is insanely selfish. It's implicitly clear that the argument is essentially 'I do not care how much misery you are in, and how unlivable your life has become. Your company entertains me so I demand that, for my benefit, you continue to suffer."

jubeh
06-22-2013, 06:58 PM
Do you feel the same way if the suicider is the sole guardian or parent of a small or developmentally challenged child?

Kodos
06-22-2013, 07:48 PM
No, however that seems like a rather unlikely hypothetical, and furthermore also a somewhat impossible one. If the suicider is literally the only person capable of caring for this person, then there is no one to argue that their suicide would be selfish.

And even then I think it is a tricky issue. I do believe people are entitled to a certain degree of selfish behavior. We are allowed to look out for ourselves. If a person's life is genuinely so utterly miserable that suicide is an otherwise justifiable option, I have to wonder if their right to self-interest trumps their obligation to the child/dependent.

jubeh
06-22-2013, 08:15 PM
Do you personally believe there is a line that could be crossed where you would find a person's suicide to be unacceptably selfish?

Sylux
06-22-2013, 09:11 PM
No it's not selfish. Clearly, people have made my life miserable and nobody can help me. By failing to help me fix the problems in my life you forfeit the right to claim my suicide a selfish act.

Also if Batman committed suicide while the Joker was about to blow up a school full of kids then yeah that's unacceptably selfish.

Kodos
06-22-2013, 10:12 PM
Do you personally believe there is a line that could be crossed where you would find a person's suicide to be unacceptably selfish?
I suppose, in theory, yes. But I cannot think of any examples off hand, so while it is something possible in principle, I do not believe it is quite within the realm of plausibility.

I'm not saying, of course, that I think suicide is always, or even usually, the correct - from a logical rather than moral - standpoint. I think most of the time people who take their own lives are, sadly, mistaken and that things can get better and/or things are not quite as horrific as they seem. But my thoughts on suicide in general aren't quite for this thread.

But yeah. I suppose it is possible but unlikely in the extreme for suicide to be morally unjustifiable due to selfishness. Assuming, of course, that we are dealing with a 'legitimate' case where life has become so unbearably miserable with so unlikely a chance of improvement that suicide is logically justifiable in the first place.

indescribable
06-22-2013, 10:54 PM
In some cases, yes, in some, no. Both to suicide being selfish and unacceptably selfish.


Didn't we have this thread? Or at least this discussion in another thread?

Edit: How did I miss that in the OP. OTL


Jubeh, why all these questions about suicide?

GunZet
06-22-2013, 11:19 PM
Jubeh has a suicide fetish, thought most of you guys knew.

As for the topic, basically what Tay said.

Hayashida
06-22-2013, 11:25 PM
Jubeh has a suicide fetish.
whats weird is i keep reading the thread title as "is suicide a fetish"

Taragon
06-23-2013, 02:37 AM
I think asking someone not to commit suicide because 'it's selfish' is insanely selfish.

While I agree that this is true, that doesn't change the fact that the act itself in many cases still is selfish, as you think of your own misery first and foremost. Suicide, however, is someones final right, and a right that should never be taken away from you.

Kodos
06-23-2013, 08:19 AM
But I think selfish, by definition, is about a morally unacceptable level of concern with one's self. I think if life is so utterly miserable that suicide is a logically justifiable option, that it's not really being selfish, most likely. That it falls within morally acceptable levels of concern for self.

I mean, after all, we all acknowledge that a certain measure of self-interest is morally justifiable. No reasonable person would argue a woman should stay in a abusive marriage for the sake of her children. Clearly her right to self-interest trumps her obligation to her children in that case. Or, in an even more basic example, if I promise a friend I will do something with them on Thursday, but get violently ill the night before and spend Thursday resting and trying to recover.
At a certain point the right to care for yourself trumps your obligations towards other people, I think. That's why heroic sacrifice is ideal but not a moral mandate, for example. I'm aware of no real reasonable moral system that would expect everyone to be willing to sacrifice their life for another. And, really, that's what calling suicie universally selfish is doing. It's saying that the suicider is at fault for, in effect, not sacrificing themselves for another person.

Aether
06-23-2013, 10:14 AM
No it's not selfish. Clearly, people have made my life miserable and nobody can help me. By failing to help me fix the problems in my life you forfeit the right to claim my suicide a selfish act.Some people are very good at masking their misery; it is not anyone else's job to fix the problems in the life of another person. Only if the suffering person asks can you legitimately help them and even then, it's still not your job.

Suicidal people who ask for help will generally become dependent on those they ask for help from, which is not healthy either. But the fact of the matter is, no-one can help you but yourself. Others can support you in whatever way they deem suitable, but they can't literally solve your problems. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink comes to mind.

I've found that a lot of suicidal people are martyrs and have not exhausted all possible avenues in solving their problems. They generally just think about it over and over and feel that there is no way to end the misery. I'm not saying that this is their fault or anything, it's what depression does.

I'm just saying that if someone asks you for help, you need to tell them that you're not fully equipped to help them and that it's not that you don't want to help them, it's more that you can't do it properly. You then need to find ways that they can help themselves such as hotlines, counsellors, et cetera.

There's a large difference between being a supportive friend, and being a hinderance to your friend's personal growth. Solving these issues themselves is part of personal growth and I'm not saying you don't listen when they need to talk, I'm saying you need to let them know that you're untrained and you may inadvertently do more harm than good.

If they're not willing to go to those means to help themselves, they're just looking for attention. People need to make these sorts of things abundantly clear in these situations.

It's also just not fair on the friend or family member to become a leaning post. Everyone has their own shit to deal with and we need to support each other, but having a one way street situation where you will only talk to that one person isn't a fair deal.

Think about it this way. If someone can't help themselves, how is anyone else expected to do so.

But to answer the question, yes, I think suicide is an incredibly selfish act. I would never tell that to a suicidal person, but it is.

Also sorry if I'm rather incoherent, I'm fairly drunk.

indescribable
06-23-2013, 12:48 PM
But I think selfish, by definition, is about a morally unacceptable level of concern with one's self. I think if life is so utterly miserable that suicide is a logically justifiable option, that it's not really being selfish, most likely. That it falls within morally acceptable levels of concern for self.
selfish: "devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others."

I personally don't see this in itself as morally unacceptable. Like you said, sometimes it's reasonable to be self-interested, and sometimes it's not.

Ooocast
06-23-2013, 07:13 PM
As a person who didn't go through because of the thought of how those loved ones would feel. Yeah I think it's one of the most selfish things you can do.

Renzokuken
06-25-2013, 03:31 PM
Similar to Outcast on this. Kind of.

I suppose in some instances it can be. In my case, I thought of all the trouble that it would cause those at the immediate scene and my other friends and family, etc.

But I don't know. I don't every situation warrants the same degree of selfishness. If that makes sense.