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Fenn
06-27-2011, 10:03 PM
One thing I still cannot understand is how, after 2 hours of work and tons of detail work and perfection of the image, my work would be sketchy (no pun intended) and far from what's in my head. Then I look at some artists online, and while there are of course the uber-detailed scenes that some manga artists create, there are also very simplistic, minimalistic manga images that appear to have been sketched out and inked in half the time, and use far fewer lines than my work, yet are far more refined, clear, and nicer to look at.

This link (to GunZet's page) shows the first type I explained: http://www.mangatutorials.com/forum/showthread.php?237-Great-Empire-of-Gunzeticus/page19

It's filled with crisp, accurate detail, and clearly took a lot of effort.

Then there's this:
:cat_rosy:

Ignoring the fact that it's animated, I could not draw that from my head. I CAN'T DRAW THAT! It would be very ugly if I tried, with poor lines and no sense of "cuteness." How does a tiny thumbnail like this convey more emotion and life than my labors of love! This is a very frustrating idea for me...

Does anyone know how this could be?

apples13
06-27-2011, 10:34 PM
I think you are looking at only the lines of the drawing instead of the illusion it is trying to create. lines are important but it comes second to the "structure" you want to create. the example you showed although the lines are rough it does its job because you can see the "3dness" of it and its details. consistency is key. it is because of this combination of flatness and 3dness that gives beginners this uneasiness. for example this is something that you see all the time. a drawing of a character with 3d more realistic hair and a face with really flat shading. or a character with shaded limbs and clothes that has shadows that don't make sense that make the clothes look flat.

ram
06-28-2011, 06:08 AM
you should start with less detail first before attempting a more detailed work like that..

practice how to do cardboard boxes first and try to do it in any point of view..
every structure goes with cardboard boxes first... when you want to draw a city, a gundam or sometimes even a human(i know i did)
do you know that there are endless possibilities in what you can draw in just one cube?
you can draw even ball using a cube for guidelines..... it's the basis of all 3dness...

i agree with apples one should practice to do the "structure" first before the lines...
and just do with the details....
of-course you should post your failed attempt....


edit: if you want a very crisp lines... then you should try other programs that can do that... in paintool sai you can edit the lines there and set the pressure....

Hamachi
06-28-2011, 08:30 AM
^apples13
^ramiel

SO MUCH THIS.

When starting out we usually focus way too much on the medium. More often than not there's a "Big Picture" sort of element that people miss when they start to focus too much on their details. Yes, you're drawing, but remember that you're working from something very basic upwards. The more conscious you are of how each action contributes (or detracts from) the final picture in your head, the better your final result will be.

Also. This is where knowledge plays a huge role. Each step has certain realistic limits to what you have to visualize, but to the extent of each of these limits, you have to know exactly what things should look like. This takes study and practice. More often than not, the crappiest drawings I've made usually resulted from careless planning and/or fudging around despite an incomplete knowledge of how things should look.

butternut
06-28-2011, 03:27 PM
When starting out we usually focus way too much on the medium. More often than not there's a "Big Picture" sort of element that people miss when they start to focus too much on their details. Yes, you're drawing, but remember that you're working from something very basic upwards. The more conscious you are of how each action contributes (or detracts from) the final picture in your head, the better your final result will be.

Also. This is where knowledge plays a huge role. Each step has certain realistic limits to what you have to visualize, but to the extent of each of these limits, you have to know exactly what things should look like. This takes study and practice. More often than not, the crappiest drawings I've made usually resulted from careless planning and/or fudging around despite an incomplete knowledge of how things should look.

Could you please explain this with an example?

apples13
06-28-2011, 06:25 PM
fenn from the art you posted it seems like i was right. for your space images the style is very flat. I am sure you did not picture a flat image in your head. in this case you do not know how to make the world look more spherical or the space rocks/dust more like 3d objects. each material has a different kind of shading process to it so you will need to look into specifically how the illusion is created through references.

GunZet
06-28-2011, 07:10 PM
I feel you on this because It's been an issue of mine for the past few days. But the solution is indeed START SIMPLE. It's the same rule with 3D. Start with a base, block stuff in, then once you have the shape and dimensions you want, start throwing in whatever detail you want and clean stuff up.

It also takes a ton of practice and just pure expertise sometimes, not to mention personal touch/style so just keep at it.

Fenn
06-29-2011, 09:06 PM
I hate shading :(

Which is exactly why I'm going to need to practice it. Thanks for the help, the only downside is it sounds like I'll be drawing friggin cardboard boxed for the next couple weeks. Oh well.

apples13
06-29-2011, 11:11 PM
I hate shading :(

Which is exactly why I'm going to need to practice it. Thanks for the help, the only downside is it sounds like I'll be drawing friggin cardboard boxed for the next couple weeks. Oh well.

if a cardboard box is the extent of what you think you can visualize in 3d space then i guess you will have to but I think you can advance much quicker that .

Fenn
06-30-2011, 06:22 PM
if a cardboard box is the extent of what you think you can visualize in 3d space then i guess you will have to but I think you can advance much quicker that .

Oh...I was just basing it off the suggestions. I'll try more stuff, although it's not going to matter what I draw until I figure out how to shade with a pencil! I've tried crosshatching but I lose the simplicity of the piece and it starts looking as complex as Gunzet's stuff, only ugly...

Rio
06-30-2011, 06:54 PM
Why do crosshatching when you can do something simpler like gradation? All you have to worry about is how hard you're pressing on the pencil.

GunZet
06-30-2011, 07:10 PM
Shading with a pencil is as simple as having control over your pencil and how much pressure you apply. Another big factor is the hardness of the pencil, a regular HB #2 should work good enough.
[personal experience] Shading with a .7 lead pencil is...difficult.

Fenn
06-30-2011, 10:46 PM
Why do crosshatching when you can do something simpler like gradation? All you have to worry about is how hard you're pressing on the pencil.

Becuz I am a noob. And the shading always ends up just looking like scribbles or zigzags...


Shading with a pencil is as simple as having control over your pencil and how much pressure you apply. Another big factor is the hardness of the pencil, a regular HB #2 should work good enough.
[personal experience] Shading with a .7 lead pencil is...difficult.

Yep I tried that too. Terrible.

Scarletlight
07-01-2011, 04:02 AM
Oh...I was just basing it off the suggestions. I'll try more stuff, although it's not going to matter what I draw until I figure out how to shade with a pencil! I've tried crosshatching but I lose the simplicity of the piece and it starts looking as complex as Gunzet's stuff, only ugly...

Shading with pencil takes pacience. Its not the type of medium you can just pick up having learnt others. For example having learnt to cross hatch with biro, you can then adapt to ink nibs, markers and ect faster but.. pencil stands alone. Its the first tool you use as an artist but the hardest to master in my opinion. You just have to keep at it. The most important thing it not to be afraid to apply pressure.

Rio
07-01-2011, 10:24 AM
Fenn, you should try using a tortillion. It's basically a piece of pointed paper that you can use to help smudge/blend your pencil work so you get the gradation that you want (or to smooth out the lines). You can buy it at art stores but if you prefer, you can make your own:

<object width="450" height="460"><param name="movie" value="http://backend.deviantart.com/embed/view.swf" /><param name="flashvars" value="id=150648384&width=1337" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://backend.deviantart.com/embed/view.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" flashvars="id=150648384&width=1337" height="460" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><br /><a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/150648384/">How to make a tortillion</a> by ~<a class="u" href="http://edelric666.deviantart.com/">edelric666</a> on <a href="http://www.deviantart.com">deviant</a><a href="http://www.deviantart.com">ART</a>

This may be helpful as well:
http://drawing-pencils.info/images/pencilgrades.gif

Hamachi
07-01-2011, 10:08 PM
Could you please explain this with an example?

Blargh, I put off responding to this for an extremely long time and kinda regret it now.

What I mean is carefully taking each step in illustration to its limits. For example. You're drawing a person.

Most people start with a stick figure, right? Does that mean you can just draw some lines and then draw the body right over it?
The answer is no. Even when starting with a stick figure you have to take into account how gravity factors in and whether the center of weight is correctly positioned. If you're drawing an action pose, you have to set a good foundation for tension even in your skeleton. Action and reaction, stretch and squash. Add that to perspective and correct proportions and you've already got an armful.

Do you, then, just draw some general shapes over your skeleton? Sort of, but it's harder then that. You can try using general rectangles and cylinders... right? Yes and no. You need to have a strong grasp of how each part fits in perspective and in relation to all the other parts, which is where people fudge things up a lot, myself included. You also have to have an innate sense of what unique shape each body part might create based on the context of the drawing, which is based on anatomical knowledge.

Then, detailing. Oh could I count the ways I've done this wrong. I could talk forever on this subject, but I'll just say that knowing how things should look before you make mistakes is not an easy thing to do. Then you move on to textures and lighting, and things just get... peachy, shall we say?

All this goes to say that there's a lot of factors you have to pay attention to when drawing just about anything, and you have to know what they are and progress carefully to end up with a good drawing. If I wanted to draw a face and didn't know what eyes look like from different angles... well you get my drift.

Fenn
07-02-2011, 11:24 PM
Shading with pencil takes pacience. Its not the type of medium you can just pick up having learnt others. For example having learnt to cross hatch with biro, you can then adapt to ink nibs, markers and ect faster but.. pencil stands alone. Its the first tool you use as an artist but the hardest to master in my opinion. You just have to keep at it. The most important thing it not to be afraid to apply pressure.

I'm starting to think fear is my biggest issue, which is silly but probably true.


Fenn, you should try using a tortillion. It's basically a piece of pointed paper that you can use to help smudge/blend your pencil work so you get the gradation that you want (or to smooth out the lines). You can buy it at art stores but if you prefer, you can make your own:

[Rio's image]

This may be helpful as well:
http://drawing-pencils.info/images/pencilgrades.gif

That tool loooks quite handy. As for the chart, I had an idea about it already, but it brings up a good point: when I good to shade, the pencil marks end up looking like that: squiggles. Am I supposed to just smudge it to make it look more seamless? For some odd reason I always thought of smudging as "cheating" and unreliable...


Blargh, I put off responding to this for an extremely long time and kinda regret it now.

What I mean is carefully taking each step in illustration to its limits. For example. You're drawing a person.

Most people start with a stick figure, right? Does that mean you can just draw some lines and then draw the body right over it?
The answer is no. Even when starting with a stick figure you have to take into account how gravity factors in and whether the center of weight is correctly positioned. If you're drawing an action pose, you have to set a good foundation for tension even in your skeleton. Action and reaction, stretch and squash. Add that to perspective and correct proportions and you've already got an armful.

Do you, then, just draw some general shapes over your skeleton? Sort of, but it's harder then that. You can try using general rectangles and cylinders... right? Yes and no. You need to have a strong grasp of how each part fits in perspective and in relation to all the other parts, which is where people fudge things up a lot, myself included. You also have to have an innate sense of what unique shape each body part might create based on the context of the drawing, which is based on anatomical knowledge.

Then, detailing. Oh could I count the ways I've done this wrong. I could talk forever on this subject, but I'll just say that knowing how things should look before you make mistakes is not an easy thing to do. Then you move on to textures and lighting, and things just get... peachy, shall we say?

All this goes to say that there's a lot of factors you have to pay attention to when drawing just about anything, and you have to know what they are and progress carefully to end up with a good drawing. If I wanted to draw a face and didn't know what eyes look like from different angles... well you get my drift.

You my friend, get a cookie. Brilliant, very helpful.

Rio
07-05-2011, 02:05 PM
That tool loooks quite handy. As for the chart, I had an idea about it already, but it brings up a good point: when I good to shade, the pencil marks end up looking like that: squiggles. Am I supposed to just smudge it to make it look more seamless? For some odd reason I always thought of smudging as "cheating" and unreliable...You don't have to if you don't want to. Some people leave the lines alone which creates a unique look to the finished piece but if you want to blend everything, that's fine too.

Pencil lines not as blended:
http://files.myopera.com/CD06-TDCN/albums/710487/forest&#37;20chapel%20pencil%20work%20100%25.jpg

Pencil lines really blended:
http://www.bauer3d.com/resources/Lioness.jpg

Fenn
07-06-2011, 04:37 PM
You don't have to if you don't want to. Some people leave the lines alone which creates a unique look to the finished piece but if you want to blend everything, that's fine too.

Pencil lines not as blended:

Pencil lines really blended:


Thanks. I'm working on the "drawing on the right side of the brain" workbook and eventually I'll get to shading.

GunZet
07-06-2011, 04:46 PM
Don't think about it, just do it. Your brain takes care of the rest. Confidence is something that is an absolute MUST with art, if you're not confident, nothing works.
Go for it bro, looking forward to some results.

Fenn
07-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Don't think about it, just do it. Your brain takes care of the rest. Confidence is something that is an absolute MUST with art, if you're not confident, nothing works.
Go for it bro, looking forward to some results.

Thx. I actually had the best scary moment of my drawing career when I worked in the workbook yesterday. I was going for the pre-instruction exercise: drawing your hand, where you just use your current skills, and I started with an outline, then froze.

I was lost.

I had no idea how to go about drawing this hand. What should I represent with a line? What should be shading? How do I interpret the folds? WHAT DO I DO! It was then that I realized that while I have been drawing manga, I've been improving with solely that subject, and my basic art skills were improving much slower. This is why I was so afraid to try anything new! While I have several years experience doing the same basic manga poses, I technically have hardly any real practice when it came to basic art skill.

Now, as I find more things I am terrible at, I'm excited rather than angry because I'm thinking "OH! Something else I hadn't thought of! Now I can try to work on this!" I'm identifying my faults now and it feels great. After I gain some confidence--like you said GunZet--I'll be able to go back to manga with a whole new perspective on art and pencil sketching!

GunZet
07-06-2011, 05:20 PM
That's what makes things weird when you first start out with manga lol. Most of those artists start out with a good background with realism and traditional art. But going from manga style to realism? It's like a step back and going in reverse forwards...Basically, really hard and awkward.

I'm sure glad my HS art teacher hated anime/manga as much as she did, I wouldn't have improved much.

ram
07-09-2011, 03:56 AM
if a cardboard box is the extent of what you think you can visualize in 3d space then i guess you will have to but I think you can advance much quicker that .

i wish i know how to advance much quicker than that..
in humans "yes" cardboard boxes isn't really needed but in "objects" it's difficult to figure out the perspective of it without doing that type of style... until now i'm still using the cube to know the perspective of the objects and i tried it without the cube once and i seem to always mess up... (although i'm still a beginner in drawing objects) but still that's what i see in books that most pro use..

here's an example
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee388/skyramiel/042-1.jpg

i have other books but it's in pdf so i can't really show ya

Rio
07-15-2011, 10:28 PM
until now i'm still using the cube to know the perspective of the objects and i tried it without the cube once and i seem to always mess up...You mess up because you have not completely learned it yet. When you've really learned something, you can usually just eye things and know the proper distance, space, and just intuitively feel if your drawing is correct or not. Keep practicing and you'll eventually get to a state where it won't be an issue... though, it's always good to go back to the basics if you want to correct or check for errors.