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 Post subject: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 pm 
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I'm not trying to start a fight, or anyhting, but I don't see how Socialism would ever work at all. Not everyone are equal; medical doctors are more valuable than Bob from accounting, as it takes more education to get into the medical field. If not eveyone are equal, then why try and set their pay grades on the same ground? Also, I really have a problem with the whole restriction of personal freedoms and liberties in financing and jobs. You want me to work on a farm for the rest of my life giving everyone free food for the rest of my life? And if I stop farming, everyone in my community will die? As appealing as everyone in a town being dead, I think I'll have to pass. Also, the ruling class have all the wealth, and not I, whose job requires 4 years minimum of education, whereas theirs requires only friends in the right places and a bit of psychology knowledge and good, selfish financing abilities. So, what's so great about it?


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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Socialism is not about everyone equal, thats more like Communism (a old communism).

The "equality" is not about everyone equal in a social value, but that everyone is equal to have a propertie to work (something that no one have).

The problem of freedom in job is he main problem about politic (the old one, that was changed by economy) and is: Freedom, Safety, Peace (justice for some people).

With this say Communism elimite Freedom to have the job you want, but gave you Safety and Peace. Eliminating the Freedom you have as an individual about your finances, it also elimite your ego, because in the communism, everyone work for a superior goal and everyone is a important part for this goal (which is Peace/Justice, and technologic and social developtment).

And yes, Capitalism let your ego intact so you can do as you want, but also there is no superior goal just many egos for many individues who only think in themself and they can work for a superior goal but it has no mayor political change as is in Communism (because in communism the superstructure, structure and infrastructure are connected and work together).


I really think that Communism or Socialism are old stories and they have little or nothing functionality in our world, but of course Capitalism is evil and a awful idea that rule this world and need to be changed.

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Superior goal? What superior goal? The only goal I have in life is self-gratification, and by the government forcing me to give freely of my hard-earned wages that I could use to please and entertain myself is like sticking a needle in my eye after I crossed my heart, and hoped to die. What is so bad about Capitalism? It leaves the weak behind, as the world should be. If you cannot stand up to my prowess then you are left in the dust to be trampled and killed by those following closely behind me. If I cannot stand up to another man's greatness, my gratificational potential is lessened to a significantly lower degree, but only because I was weak. I wasn't strong enough, so I died. I am fine with that, because the fact that I have the potential to become the President of the US just tickles me fucking pink.


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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:47 pm 
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You're confusing socialism with communism

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:47 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:50 pm 
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why should the "weak" suffer

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Simply because they are weak. Also, were The Patriots Socialist? O_o

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Simply because they are weak.
surely u can come up with a better answer

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Um, no. The weak perish because we, the strong, strive only to gain for ourselves, and create as much anguish as we possibly can for a sense of superiority. The world is and should be a very dog-eat-dog place, where families (much like feudal kingdoms, here) are either out to cut everyone else's throats, or strengthen their clans by joining in marriage, and then going out to cut some silly goose throats. I'm a little different from the other strong people in that I also seek to help as many people in need as possible. I'm quite a nice guy irl, but the moment the government or someone else forces me to be nice, I disobey and rage against them in as many ways as I possibly can, exploiting all loopholes and outright breaking a butt-ton of rules that don't get me more than 1 month jailtime just to silly goose them off.


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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Ideologically or practically? It's bullshit either way, but so is capitalism.

Ideologically: groups and societies do not exist as entities distinct from their members, which is what Margaret Thatcher meant when she uttered the much-derided "There is no such thing as society." When you say you want to benefit the group, you ought to mean you want to benefit all the members of the group. Socialism, in its attempts to combat poverty and such, serves only the members of society who are lacking and thus does not help the group. It helps 'society', but 'society' is an imaginary object thought up for convenience. Serving it is pretty much like being servant to an invisible entity that connects everyone in a country but does not actually exist. You'll note that this is identical to capitalism's concept of the company as a financial body - companies do not exist distinctly from their employees, and thus the socialist state and the capitalist company are identical - and equally stupid - but structured differently.

Practically: Socialism costs a lot more money to maintain than a lassez-faire capitalist or an anarchist state. Socialist states are more prone to national debt, financial problems, and defaults on their loans. In addition, socialism and the welfare state thereof tends to provide services of a lower quality to the people than those that can be provided privately. (For an example of this, see Britain's national debt and the decline of the NHS over the last few years.) It sacrifices quality for wideness of availability.

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:57 pm 
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>mfw the american military is a socialist program

Anyway, the "weak" are usually in the position they're in because of something else out of their control. Take for example, when Nestlé gave milk away to people in Africa. Know what happened? Since people could get milk for free, no one bought milk from dairy farmers, and they subsequently went out of business. After that, Nestlé started charging money for their milk, since they were the only seller. That's just one of many examples of a corporation ruining local economies to increase profits. Not only corporations but governments do this as well. So my point is, it's not fair to say that "the weak should perish" since a lot of the time it's not even their fault. It's greedy people who just want more and more money and are willing to exploit people to get that money.
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I'm quite a nice guy irl, but the moment the government or someone else forces me to be nice, I disobey and rage against them in as many ways as I possibly can, exploiting all loopholes and outright breaking a butt-ton of rules that don't get me more than 1 month jailtime just to silly goose them off.

You sound like a little baby who cries when he can't have his way.

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Oh - since I've condemned both left and right wing economic policies, some of you will probably ask me what ideology I follow instead, or accuse me of following an ideology of helplessness.
Both left and right wing economics are built on the prior assumption that there are insufficient or barely sufficient resources for people to survive on. Generally, in the modern world, this is true - but it doesn't need to be. What both left and right-wing economics miss out is that resources are not a fixed quantity; they fluctuate according to weather, according to famine, or even according to the stock market, in a modern free-market economy. If we increase the amount of resources to a point where everyone can have those resources in abundance, then we have no need for such primitive economic systems as capitalism and communism to limit the access people have to these resources. This also eliminates the need for money, as money is merely an abstraction representing a certain quantity of resources.
With the dawn of robotics and computing, it looks increasingly likely that it will soon be possible for a mining, farming, or fishing operation to be run either entirely by robots without human intervention or with human intervention only to repair mechanical problems. This entails an economy with barely any work necessary and an abundance of leisure time - which is essentially an anarchist state created through abundance of resources, which is the end state I'm hoping for. Nobody needs to work, everyone lives as only millionares live now, et cetera. The finest foods and clothes are designed by humans for fun (as on many t-shirt design sites) and produced by robots when desired.
For this reason I support renewable energy, heavy investment into scientific research, and economic growth, along with other policies that will reduce the need for human labour and increase our reliance on technology.

I think Kodos has similar opinions to me on economics.

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:26 pm 
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Resources flucuate? What. You say that like we're never going to run out of oil. (Though I see you suppot renewable energy, so I'm confused.) Look at how many whales we killed during the 1800's. They're nubers are still pretty low. I think.

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Bacon Barbarian wrote:
Resources flucuate?

Sorry, I should have said the supply of resources fluctuate. (For example, if Sri Lanka were suddenly invaded the price of oil would go up because there would be less oil available to the US - supply and demand, you know. Basic economics, et cetera.) But the rest of the argument remains the same.

EDIT: Oh, and in addition it's possible to make a form of crude oil from plants - which means that we have a potentially infinite supply of oil that can be made using processes that use only electricity. This doesn't mean we should use oil to make oil (conservation of energy states this would be inefficient compared to just using the original oil), but it does mean that, using renewable energy sources, we can create infinite or effectively infinite amounts of plastic.

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 Post subject: Re: What's so great about Socialism, anyway?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Sottaceti wrote:
Um, no. The weak perish because we, the strong, strive only to gain for ourselves, and create as much anguish as we possibly can for a sense of superiority. The world is and should be a very dog-eat-dog place, where families (much like feudal kingdoms, here) are either out to cut everyone else's throats, or strengthen their clans by joining in marriage, and then going out to cut some silly goose throats. I'm a little different from the other strong people in that I also seek to help as many people in need as possible. I'm quite a nice guy irl, but the moment the government or someone else forces me to be nice, I disobey and rage against them in as many ways as I possibly can, exploiting all loopholes and outright breaking a butt-ton of rules that don't get me more than 1 month jailtime just to silly goose them off.


P sure you think that because you live with mom and don't have to pay bills.

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